To be pagan using magic is to practise occult ways. So why do some people shy away from accepting or realising this? Is it because occult has 'scary' conotactions and pagan sounds friendly, nicer, safe even? After all people often refer to others as 'dabbling in the occult' when serious practioners definately don't dabble. But I've not really heard of people 'dabbling' at being pagan (well except pagans being derogatory of other pagans that is!)

What do you think? Do you ever think of your magical work as occult or just pagan? Do you think that the occult has no connection to your pagan work and why is this?



Speak up, you know you want your thoughts heard

Most of my work infact I would say is more occult driven than taking a pagan stance driven.

Since I tend to stay away from dieties and set paths ( in my workings) then I would say that, personally, they take a more occult angle than a pagan angle.

I think more people may have working which more closely relate to their beliefs and those pagan may take a more pagan than occult relational away from their working.

I hope that made sense!


(and someone at some point in this thread is going to go on about what occult means and how therefore they don't really relate.)

Rituals, Spells, Magickal workings are all Occult or occult ,depending on the grammar. I don't think of things that are essentially Witchy as being Pagan first and foremost, which is probably debateable as they say any faith or religion can have Witches. So not all Witches are Pagans (moot point) Would a Jewish Witch think of themself as being Occult?

To sum me up I must therefore be a Witch, a Pagan who practises an Occult working.

Never really thought this bit of it out before to me I'm a healing Witch with Pagan beliefs, so forgive me if I'm rambling in a confused manner, just thinking, that's all

well as i mentioned b4 in other posts... and also state on my profile...
i am not a pagan i am an occultist! and i dont veiw this as scary we are just misunderstood

paganism simple put are earth based faiths and occultism is not!!!
my faith and many others are not earth based yet we study the occult!

but there is nothing stopping ppl being/studing both...
but are they the same topic? just different words? i dont think so!

they are 2 very different terms!

paganism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pagan

occultism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occult
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=occult

*edited for spelling*

I did state pagans using magic rather than meaning those who use none. There is clearly a huge cross over area, to interact or call upon spirits and entities as many pagans do makes their practices come under the occult lable. To work with forces and elementals is to cross into the occult. It does seem that many are afraid to either acknowledge that or even realise it, which I find odd, perhaps though it's down to the all the 'faery' folk are nice and welcoming type of wannabe a witch books. To practise magic is to open a whole new world that was previously hidden to most.

But I like their definition of occult though
"Many people, especially Conservative Christians, use the term in a derogatory, connotative sense to refer to a number of practices which they disapprove of on religious grounds but which those who participate in for the most part do not consider occult. These include the role-playing game Dungeons & Dragons, heavy metal music, and sometimes even Catholicism. However, as there is nothing secret nor hidden, the term 'occult' would not denote role-playing games, "Harry Potter" books or heavy metal music."

Naturally then as the catholic church is full of secrets and hidden crap then that would make them occult?!

and of course many Churches had altar screens so the riff raff couldn't see the magical workings going on around the altar. Yes, definitely . occult.

dav

Yes, not for me personally but as a generality I'd say yes.

I don't describe myself as an occultist but I do describe myself as pagan.

This is because "occult" simply means "hidden" or "secret" depending upon how you choose to define it. The fact that the word occult has become associated with satanism for example is an irrelevence to me.

Whilst I don't shout my beliefs from the hilltops; neither do I hide them, I would therefor not describe myself as "occultist".

My basic perception of the world however does seem to come under that other great generalisation; "Pagan".

Of course anyone that practices their paganism in a hidden or secretive manner has every right to describe themselves as both pagan and occultist.

I'm not sure at all how anyone can describe themselves simply as "occultist" without the addition of some indication as to what it is that they are "occultist" about.

Maybe, Dave, they feel its for them to know and for the others to find out?

Ahhh I see.

or they are just confusing obscure and occult?

That's actually a very interesting point you are raising there. I would have thought the "occult" refers to the hiddeness, the secrecey of the doctrine from uninitiated ones.

The official definition of the word Occult that Frater provided would also tend to this explanation. I think that occultism is also associated with people being secrative about their believes because the occultists had to hide in older days their believes from the Christian public.

In theory, as mentioned earlier, Chritianity could also have been seen as an occult belief at certain times in its history. The congregation was kept away from the core of the doctrine by priests speaking latin and a bible in greek, rituals were (as in historic Judaism) conducted well away from the people behind a curtain or screen etc. I think that under a liberal definition of the word even freemasonry could be seen as occult.

Cheerio,

S.

That's like saying you can't describe someone as sinister if they are right handed.

barely alive, temp puter access.. I'm such an addict..

and of course, had to reply here!! Lol

Occulist.. esp in states.. is seen as very black magickish and devil worshiping, satanist..and derogative..

too many negative connations, whether wrong or not.. rather be seen at the bookstore, in the New Age section.. lol or even witchcraft is better!!

I hadn't thought of this either weatherwitch, drat you bring up soo many interesting questions.. and too early to think (7 am here folks, no matter what the time, on this says! lol )..

anyway.. i do pratice magick and call on the watchtowers/elements..

but I see paganism as an earthbased spiritual path..

will have to ponder on this, more later date..

house is still not ready and company coming!! eek

blessings!! Whispered

That raises another interesting idea, few people within pagan circles recognise the terms black or white magic. Would those who described themselves as occultists then separate the two where there really is no distinstion?

Most of my magick is for Healing purposes.
I have cursed people in the past, always as a reaction to something they've said or done which has really got to me, you know, right under the flesh where they had an option to not go that route, so they got cursed.

Black magic then I would define as a Negation of good, (not necessarily magic) and White as a Positive of good, or at least full of good intent

Being pagan does not necessarily include anything magical or occult.

I do not use magic (the closest I get is runecasting which is tapping into Wyrd rather than magic). You can indeed dabble in occult, but since pagan is not synonymous with magic, 'dabbling at being Pagan' makes about as much sense as 'dabbling at being Christian', unless of course the term is being used in a derogatory sense. Pagan is something that some people are, magic is something that some people do.

Which would be why, as Weatherwitch has already emphasised she said



Rather than just saying 'to be pagan is to practice occult ways'

Exactly Esk, just as I said

I've not used magic myself for a long time now either

When I first became interested in magick/occult workings I very much considered myself a xtian witch, and that lasted maybe a year or so, but as I read more and more about different pantheons I began to realise that I had much more in common with paganism than xtianity, and so over time I began to consider myself a pagan, I suppose that when I started to talk to Cerridwen and ask her to be a part of my healing rituals that I finally let go of my xtian upbringing. So now Im both a worker of magick, a witch or occultist and a pagan, but you dont have to be one to be the other.

I agree with your first statement, and probably people do shy away from the word 'occult' for whatever reason they have.

Occult means 'Secret', I reckon most people of non-magickal inclinations think it must mean something like 'I LOVE THE DEVIL' or 'SATAN'S MY HERO' or something. A lot of people do find the occult frightning, mainly because they tend to associate it with programmes like Buffy and Charmed, which is mostly a load of codswollop anyway. Anything to do with you with witchcraft COULD be classed as Occult, as it is secret in away, but I think that it would be more appropriate to use it in the same context as 'Enochian Law' and 'the Goetia' or other high ceremonial Magicks such as 'Golden Dawn' and the 'Rosicrusian order'.

Blessed Be xx