many xians who start martial arts find themselfs having a crisis of faith!
either giving up one or the other, only on very rare occasions i have heard of a person who is truly both!

over the years in my own personal experience and also through books, even forums on the net, many martial artists who have never followed a pagan/occult path seem to have a deeper understanding of themselfs just like occultists/pagans do!

my point.. there is definitely something within martial arts...
whether it be something spiritual or just confidence... etc...

i have studied many different forms (ninjutsu, aikido, karate, jeet kune do, iaido/kendo) yet i always find myself drawn back to a certain style that just fits who i am!

what about others here? styles you have practiced?
just as being pagan for some defines who they are!
does your martial arts fill yet another peice to your own puzzle?

not having studied any but I do know a Karate instructor. From what she has told me and what I've heard elsewhere a major part of teaching the eastern martial arts is to also teach the culture and spiritual basis. As a result they are in effect buying into a spiritual system as much as a physical art - mainly I would say as the eastern arts are a mental discipline as much as physical one.

Its this which i would assume leads to problems with Christians (and also leads to churches banning Karate clubs and Yoga classes from their halls).

As for finding one art more 'you' I would assume this to be the same way that different paths suit different people.

But then I can't even master knitting!

I've done a bit of Karate and Tai-chi in the past, and both involve energy working at some level, which can lead people in all kinds of directions. Good fun, both of them!

My daughter outlaw is a Chee Gong (although she spells it wheeeefxogngk or something) teacher which is a kind of Tai chi. She also worked for years as a Feng shui consultant and she is very well versed in all that kind of thing.

She is one of the very few people I can talk to about healing (principally because we talk and don't have to speall the bloody things!)

Sorry - no seriously, we have talked endlessly about our different paths and find that we walk alongside for a lot of the way. When we start talking about influencing energies, we end up not having to talk and just gesticulating at each other (and no this is not after several bottles of bo, she doesn't drink).

She was raised by a devout RC Italian mother and has had to do some very serious spiritual hoop jumping to get where she is now. Her brand of "using energy" - her words not mine, is one of the basics of martial arts and has to come from the spirit before anything can come from the body - however, the body movements are what raises the spiritual energy .... see, I was listening!

Hopefully we are going to work together and she will start teaching me ..... Ma with a martial art ........

I am just posting a couple of tales she sent me which may be philosophical or just make everyone feel better ..... I don't do philosophy, big words, or anything that excludes jellybabies.

This is very interesting. I had been wondering if anyone else used practices usually considered part of another belief system.

I do yoga, for the meditation, although I am new to it at the moment. It helps focus me on my Pagan beliefs. I used to do Tai Chi for the same reason and years back I did Aikido (in a church hall as it happens) and that is also a practice that harnessess the energies.

I don't find these conflict with my beliefs at all. I suppose it is a matter of finding what is right for you. I am kind of eclectic anyway and like to keep an open mind. I look forward to reading more answers on this page.

Snowstar

If you asked Alex, she would say she is "loosely Buddhist" but she and I seem to agree on so many things I count her as "loosely pagan" - no worries either way .... and who needs labels anyway?

I think Frater may be right as Martial arts not only teaches one to fight but also teaches a different way of thinking along with a change in attitude.

I practice Chee Bong as well and I find it a great stress reliever. It's a wonderful form of exercise and found it after doing a photo essay for a Martial Arts Magazine on a display of the different forms of martial arts at a private school where I live. (I have a good friend that is the martial arts instructor at the school and puts on these shows every summer. I've learned of it through him as well)

Chee bong involves slow fluid motion and working with Chi, a form of energy that helps balance the body and unblocking the chakras and tends to provide the body with more energy. I also practice Yoga, which is another mind/body form of exercise.

Yeah, I'd have said it's more an attitude/philosophy than a religious thing. Yoshinkan Aikido is a great example - it is (or was - not sure now) mandatory for the japanese riot police, not so much because it was useful for controlling riots, but because it's seen as teaching "Japanese Spirit" - straightens out those frivolous youngsters before their first riot and all that.

Lots of arts have their own spirit. I tried kendo, but couldn't stand the classes - all very serious and regimented. Blegh.

I haven't done any since I moved, but in the past I've done some tae kwon do, aiki ju-jitsu, and western fencing. In fitting with me, it's not the art that suits me, but the class - I like places where the teaching and learning is very free-form, and not overly serious. I take MA's for fun, not to become an ultra-serious killing machine!

On a more pagany note, anyone tried chi gung? I saw it advertised on a tai chi site in London, and I'm thinking of having a go...

[SIZE=1][SIZE=1][SIZE=1]


As I mentioned earlier on in the thread, my daughter outlaw is a teacher of chi gung. As you have noticed it is a form of tai chi which is the basis of all the martial arts, as far as movements are concerned. She finds that people who come to her classes usually become more focussed and balanced ... but like everything else, you get out what you put in.

I find Tai chi and the philosophies I studied as a result of that crop up quite a lot in my worldview.

BB

Mike

This for me is emphasised by my own experience.
I practiced and taught various martial arts for twenty years ranging from Wado Ryu Karate through Jujitsu, Aikido, Tai t'Chi Chuan and Tai Kwon Do to Kendo and on into Yoga.

Whilst I've lapsed somewhat of late; the part of martial arts that stays with me even when the physical disciplines are less strong is the mental, philosophical and even religious elements; self discipline in line with the principles of buddhism, shinto and taoism.

I believe that is the christian problem; Martial arts teach, encourage and develop personal responsibility in all aspects of life. Christianity is a theocracy. Theocracy and total free will combined with personal responsibility are principles that do not easily mix.

I do yoga - I find that not only do I feel better physically after a session, but that it makes it easier to listen to myself, like an active meditation. I don't find that it conflicts with my beliefs at all - on the contrary, it helps me to examine them in more depth than perhaps I would ordinarily

I think that most martial arts in general definitely have a spiritual element to them (Applying really only to eastern fighting systems, as us Europeans seem to skim over that, going straight for the vicious bits, like in Kick-Boxing for instance), in particular Tai' Chi Chuan, which is best known for its slow, focused movements to harness Qi or Life-force energy (Whilst every movement is designed to kill). Often, most martial arts styles incorporate a seperate spiritual component into the training, for example, I study Seven Star Preying Mantis Kung-Fu, but we also do some excercises from Qi Kung, which is similar to Reiki, so I would definitely say that more or less all Eastern styles of fighting, incorporate a spiritual element into them

Blessed Be xx

I started with Karate. They way it was taught did not give the idea that you were working with energy or the likes. It was mainly defence and attack techniques.
This might be typical for karate, as you have to be rather advanced to reach the stage that they start talking about pressure points and flow of energy.

In September I started with Lee style Tai chi an Kai Men Yoga (the Tai chi form of yoga). Even without they mention it you can feel the enery working.
However, the teacher does mention energy and how it flows in the human body in some detail. Unfortunatly I train at the university and as soon it goes a bit more "new age" (terminology used on purpose) a lot of the students just start giggling after with the teacher just gives up. A real shame.

Some time ago we started with excises on sensing each other in order to "predict" the other person's next move.

Especially the Kai Men exercises are very good to get the energy flowing in the merideans.

I found Karate to be just attack and defense no energy etc really like you say cygfa, I gained my black belt but as I grew older I realised it wasnt really for me (not sure if it was the 6teacher or what, I havent been to another karate class since so I cant really say but the teacher I had just wanted to teach the fighting side no spiritual side) so I joined Budo Taijutsu and have found its extremely spiritual and so much more for me, I love it the Shidoshi is excellent and teaches every aspect of the martial art.

does any one have any links for the above ?

Mmm did Karate for years, it wasn't taught with any spiritual element, I didn't mind at the time, I enjoyed the physicality of it. I also started Juditsu too, which I enjoyed more, more physical contact and interesting moves - again no spiritual element as such. Did go on a couple of courses for Juditus and the spiritual side was emphasised more... particularly controlling of fear/pain etc.

I loved it.. on eday I might go back to Juditsu...

Martial Arts world forum
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/

AIKIDO
http://cust.idl.com.au/redhand/MARTIAL%20ARTS/FORMS.htm
http://www.aikidofaq.com/

KENJUTSU
http://users.adelphia.net/~kyoshi/Kenjutsu.htm

General Terminology
http://web.mit.edu/afs/.athena/activity/j/...terminology.htm

Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu
http://www.budowarrior.co.uk/budomain.html
http://www.bujinkan.co.za/T1.html

so many martial arts out there and so many links!
or try google, yahoo, etc etc Good Luck

Have you tried the arnica yet?

not yet was in the shop the other day but was skint after spending all my money (not like i have any to spend anyway)

Sections two and three of the rec.martial-arts FAQ have very good concise definitions. For more info on each, Google is your friend.

There are plenty of instructors that do not teach the spiritual and moral sides as integral to the art.

I've always thought that such instructors are denying their students 80% of the possible benefits of learning the art.

Really good instructors are not common.

Instructors that wish to teach students to fight are common.

Instructors that wish to teach students to defend are thankfully slowly becoming more common.

Instructors that wish to teach all aspects of an art are rare.

That having been said; even the best instructors will only show the true depths of an art to those students that show a capacity to understand those elements of the art.

If your instructor doesn't teach the more philosophical aspects of an art; ask them plenty of questions. If they refuse to give answers or appear unable to give answers; then find another instructor that is more capable.

Main one for the style of Tai chi I mentioned
http://www.leefamilystyle.com

External useful site:
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~maa1/chi/taichi/lee.htm

Unfortunatly Dave you are very right, I wish it werent this way but sadly it is.
I did start asking my instructor questions in karate when I got a lil older, and to be honest he disapointed me, he just seemed interested in fighting and had no time for other areas of martial arts, (you always get bad in every area of life)
Im just glad to have found the class im now in, it helps me so much more with focus and energy etc,

You done alot of martial arts Dave, which one did you find suited you best? were all taught spiritually as well as physically?

My main style has always been Wado Ryu Karate but I've been lucky enough to be able to develop some interesting friendships with a few good instructors from many eastern martial arts schools.

The person that possibly gave me the most was Danny Connor. He spent ten years at Tokai university in the nineteen fifties, learning Wado Ryu whilst he was there and achieving second dan under his japanese instructor. He came back to Britain around 1960 and set up the British Karate Association which he ran until his death a couple of years ago. He had a fantastic depth of understanding for martial arts probably as a result of his own background in the arts in Japan.

I have to say though that Danny was something of a rarity amongst instructors. Like many; he didn't share the depth of his knowledge lightly but when he did he brought a whole concept to the arts that 90% of instructors seem to have missed.

In my experience I would say that more than nine out of ten instructors are incapable of either teaching or understanding the true depths of martial arts and I don't mean "the chinese death touch" bullshit, I mean the real personal implications and options for the spiritual and philosophical. But then I'm always comparing them to Danny.That's not an easy question for me to answer.
The one that I spent the most time learning has always been Wado Ryu which translates as "the way of peace" or "the way of harmony". I feel that the second translation is the more accurate. In many ways that suited me very well as I was lucky enough to find good instructors.
I enjoyed Kendo but that's probably something to do with "boys and their toys"
The art that I've always wished to learn far more of though is Aikido but good Aikido instructors are possibly the rarest of all.

I think; given the right instructor, many arts can be equally beneficial from a philosophical and spiritual direction as pretty much all far eastern martial arts stem from the same roots in buddhism. That usually attributed to the Indian buddhist monk Boddhidarma but having become extremely convoluted in their ideals, priorities and styles in the two thousand years or so since he left southern India and moved into China. We may have to dig quite hard to find those roots but they are there if we take the time to search them out.

Hmm - I know we've had part of this discussion before, but just thought I'd ask - have you read Angry White Pyjamas by Robert Twigger? His account of Yoshinkan aikido instruction in the head dojo in Tokyo certainly didn't have the mystical spiritualism so many seem to be searching for in this thread. This was with the best instructors of Yoshinkan in the world - people whose aikido was damn good. The only problem is, it doesn't fit in with what you're talking about - it's aikido from before Ueshiba really got into the spiritual path one sees so clearly in aiki aikido, so it's an art with spirit, but still essentially a fighting art with a focus on self-defence.

Is the problem that everything we're talking about here is a "do" - a "way," while early aikido without the spiritualism was a "jitsu" sort of art?

I don't know - I just struggle to accept that a martial art or it's teacher is inherently a "bad" art or teacher simply because of the lack of a strong spiritual side. Boxing is a fine martial art in my books, but no one will claim it's the path to clean living - it's just the study of an art which is martial in nature. Kendo is another fine example - it's a "way" intended to promote thought and some spiritual growth while using a form of a sword, while the nearly extinct kenjitsu was a straightforward practice in how to kill people with a sword. In my view, they're both martial arts, but the way you're talking, kenjitsu isn't one.

(I'm ignoring the Western influence on kendo which has turned it into a competition-focused art for the above.)

Am I rambling without meaning? Hope not - just trying to puzzle this out, and well aware you've plenty more MA experience than I have.

pb

I think that's purely down to; what the individual student is looking for.

If you're after a jitsu then there are many good instructors.

If you're after a Do then there aren't.

I do feel however that an art should not carry the word "Do" within it's name unless it is taught and learned as a "Way".

Why advertise apples as oranges? It's misleading to the student.

It depends upon what the individual seeks to gain from it.

My understanding is that all eastern martial arts to some occasionally even minute degree find their roots via many evolutions and changes of name in buddhism.

Many still retain elements of buddhist philosophy.

For me, this remains an important part part of the art.

For others; it may not.

Bottom line though; to teach an art that goes under the heading of a "Do" simply as a "jitsu" shows either ignorance or dishonesty on the part of the instructor.

If an instructor calls the style he teaches a "Do" then he should be capable of teaching it as such and do so.

I recently did yoga and tai chi and I did karate for many years when I was younger. I found tai chi very relaxing, apart from the fact that I found the moves hard to remember (old age ). I did find that karate had a spiritual side and taught responsibility for actions (as someone else said) and awareness of self and others.

Totally off topic.....




Hubby (then boyfriend) and I had just come back from karate class and were bumming around in our gis when someone came to the door looking for my flatmate. As he left he said "Sorry to wake you both."

hi, I didn't find this thing until now, so don't mind me bringing it up again
I do Wado kai karate, I don't know if there is a lot of difference between the Wado kai and the Wado ruy, it's still the way of peace.

Since I'm in a university club, I don't think the teacher incorporate that much of the spiritual aspect of the training, but I think I found a lot of it myself when doing it.

I am more whole, more confident and a lot more peaceful.
I've been able to work out some of my issues just since I started, and I feel that I'm much more me than I ever was.

It's not really the beating up someone else thing with the fighting either, it's the movements, the working with myself and controlling my own feelings and reactions.
Wado is half/no contact too, so I'm not really supposed to actually hit anyone hard either. I need to control my motion and stop right before contact.
When I fight, it's not that much the other person I fight, it's much more me and my own things I consentrate on.

Can't wait until I get back to Scotland and start training again, never found the time to do it while I'm back here in Norway..

I really want to start tai chi too when I get back, I saw that they're going to set up classes so I think I'll go and see what it's about..

I'm not sure but doesn't "Kai" indicate inner or self.

That would make Wado Kai; "the way of inner harmony" which is exactly the perspective that I was taught with regard to Wado Ryu.

I could be slightly out on that, I need to check it out.

Anyway, I'm glad that you got as much out of it as I always have. That's the theory and the ideal, didn't you find though that given the right place, the right time and the right partner; that full contact occurrs and can be equally enjoyed by both of the nutters involved. It really does have to be under the right circumstances though.

Sorry I'm a bad lad and I should be slapped.

I haven't, yet. It's been recommended to me by quite a few people though so I suppose that I'll have to read it at some point. Why do you ask, have you read it? what's your opinion?

there

hehe, well I found that it can be, but it's still the coming over myself and the control thing that is important. perhaps even more then.

Bad me, think I should be slapped too

I did actually train Kyokukushinkai Karate when I was younger, and that is full contact and a bit tougher..
We played no rules basketball for warm up and then I mean absolutelly no rules
It wasn't really for me though, like Wado a lot more, it's more about the movements and speed than muscle and how hard you are.

everybody LOL

the bujinkan i do is full body contact (as for me always getting bruises) LOL
we even get to chase each other around with wooden sticks and swords!

YAY much pain and fun had by all

I certainly have - it's a fun book. As I said earlier in this thread:



I was pointing this out in the context of your post which seemed to be saying that for a martial arts instructor to be really good, he has to teach both martial aspects and spiritual aspects. By this logic, some of the best aikido teachers in Japan aren't particularly good, as Yoshinkan doesn't appear to run with the spirituality Uyeshiba fed into the main/later branches of aikido.

I maintain the feeling that martial arts can have spirituality mixed in with them if they want, but at the end of the day, I think martial arts are about martial skills. I don't see any reason to believe that early systems like Te or the like had any spiritual aspects - it seems to me as though the spiritual aspects have been mixed in over time, simply because the places these martial arts are from tended to have spiritual bents. Karate in particular seems to have embraced the "spiritual self-defence" philosophy under the influence of Funakoshi, and then had that new focus emphasized during the American occupation of Japan after the second world war. The Americans banned anything that smacked of warfare - fighting systems weren't going to get by as fighting systems, so they were suddenly pitched as pseudo-religions.

There's my opinion! You probably knew it already.

pb

That's all well and good if you choose to ignore older histories

http://secure.mycart.net/catalogs/store.asp?pid=65984

http://www.springsgreetingcards.com/catalo...500&catid=22647

...and you'll find a lot more on this feller throughout all eastern martial arts histories.

Chicken and egg? no competition, the two are historically inextricably entwined, it's up to us how we choose to eat them.

Hah! My mistake - I thought we were talking mostly about Japanese arts in this conversation. (As I'm sure you're already aware of, Te didn't really make the move to being a "way" until Funakoshi's time. While it was Te, it was essentially a wide range of Okinawan fighting styles (with the level of influence from chinese arts being quite open to debate from style to style) Check out this page for a somewhat Chinese-sceptical account.

I'm tempted (as is often the case for me) to be somewhat sceptical about the wide-ranging claims about damo. For example, in the links you posted, Damo is said to have been around in the years around 520AD, while there are many references to martial arts (and indeed even particular styles of these "kung fu") existing well before this time. Links like this one leave me more sceptical. (Skip down to the "Current Theories" section.)

And heck, we're being pretty sino-centric at the moment, aren't we? Capoeira, silat, krav magra, and savate are all pretty good examples of martial arts from around the world - once again, without spiritual sides.

Anyways, it's it's horses for courses really - you can choose to not believe the links I've posted - they're probably not as fun as thinking of Damo teaching the entire world how to throw a punch. I'm dubious myself.

How is it possible to separate Japanese martial arts from all of the other oriental martial arts. That would be like trying to hold a conversation on Darwinian evolution but only allowing the conversation to cover the last century.

Fair comment but only the niaive would claim Bodhidarma as the only founder of martial arts surely. Surely we all know that "Gung Fu"; "physical training" was occuring in human societies for thousands of years before Bodhidarma arrived on the scene in China. In India for example, where Bodhidarma is said to have come from to China, there is still a fighting form called Kalayaripayit that is probably not dissimilar to the arts that Bodhidarma took with him to China and that certainly predates his influence on Chinese martial arts. I simply used him as an example of martial arts ancient connections with spirituality as opposed to the idea that spirituality within the martial arts is little more than a cynical attempt to attract the spiritually minded to the arts and that it was merely used as an excuse to the Americans by the Japanese for continuing martial arts training after the war. I've heard the reverse argument from some quarters; that it was mainly due to American and other western influences that the spiritual elements to martial arts have largely been subdued or ignored since the war.I'm sorry that you assume me to be so niaive. You failed to grasp my point, as I've explained.

I'm not attempting to separate it completely, but then I do see it as being somewhat distinct. It's likely the two have mixed at one point or another, but the implication of your post seemed to be that the spirituality that was introduced to shaolin in China was essentially linked to a perceived spirituality in Japanese arts. This feels like a stretch to me. Yeah, I was being a bit overdramatic with that last bit of that post - sorry about that.
I can see how some might feel that way - Westerners as a whole may have focused more on "sports" type martial arts which emphasize softer contact and less (often no) joint locks and the like - this is a common complaint in discussions of traditional martials arts vs. mixed/western martial arts, and I can see how one might put the spiritual side of an art into the same context. At the same time, I sometimes think people enter martial arts looking a bit too hard for the spirituality, and have that tedious "people learn martial arts so they don't have to fight" sort of attitude. The fluffies of martial arts, if you will - like the Fists of Righteous Harmony went about creating their system so they could do deep breathing exercises and talk about their oneness with the stand of trees next to the tube station.

Don't get me wrong - I'm in no way claiming that martial arts have never been linked to spirituality. There seems to be little scope for claiming that Shaolin isn't linked, for example. My claim is simply that the spirituality isn't linked to any martial arts - I simply don't see how it necessarily forms an essential parts of them, and see many examples of arts which do not (to the best of my knowledge) have spiritual sides.

Hah - while I don't know you personally, I've seen enough of your posts to know you're not naive - apologies for seeming to have thought so. I didn't follow your point, but I'm afraid I still don't agree with it - spirituality can be there, I guess I just see it as being separate. Who knows? I'm hoping to start at an Aikido school here in London later this year and it seems quite traditional in its approach. Perhaps I'll learn more than just the martial aspects I'm expecting to see.

**edited for a typo