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Guest elmfire

Whats The Diff? - between wiccan and a witch

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Moonhunter

Adds, it rather depends.

 

There's been mention on this thread of the fact that Wicca is initiatory. In the UK, one isn't accepted by Gardnerian or Alexandrian covens as a Wiccan without having gone through the proper initiation into one a coven of that line whose High Priest and Priestess can trace their lineage back to Sanders or Gardner.

 

Is that what you're saying?

 

Of course, there are many, many people who would either claim to be Wiccan without having been through that. It won't make an ounce of difference to them that the old guard Garnderians and Alexandrians would disown them.

 

And then there are those who would say only that they are 'Wiccan influenced'.

 

Some of those in the latter two groups often call themselves 'wiccan' rather than 'Wiccan' to make the distinction.

 

But I'm sure one or two of the Wiccans/wiccans here would tell you what the score is now - things move on so quickly in the pagan world and, as I'm no longer Wiccan, I could be talking through my... :)

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Guest jape

Well seeing as how this has been started again, and I enjoyed reading the posts, I am (carefully) going to add my opinion and experience.

 

No wiccan is truly a witch. Big or small 'w' they are just starters in a ceremonial magick ritualistic method of magick usage. Other magickal ceremonial groups and orders have far deeper and more powerful methodology than Wicca. Few Wiccans I have met, and I include true lineaged Alexandrians and Gardnerians of high repute, prefer or use the term witch except in general and lazy colloquial usage. They understand that they are ceremonial practitioners of a religion and act as Priest or other hierarchical beings within that order and are content with that. Their personal understanding of magick may be broad or deep, but they are not witch, as wiccan.

 

No witch has a religion, or rather uses religious practise of any kind in witchcraft. No deity, no heirarchy. You may meet, deal with, accept, understand and even stand in awe of deity or such spiritual forms and energies if you met them, but you do not worship. Ever.

 

A witch will not ever accept any intercessor between them and their understanding of or practise and knowledge of the spiritual realms. They may indeed have a religious practise they are comfortable with, but it is not their witchcraft. They can also be soldiers or bakers, the craft is completely disconnected from the vagaries of role or vocation.

 

So once again I state, witchcraft is NOT a religion. It is not a 'calling' or a vocation or a career. It is state of understanding and being that connects of its own essence to an unbroken line of power and craft that can be said to be a tradition. However, it is discovered by each and every witch in their own path and time. That is the 'witch incarnate' experience without which, none are witch. Many work magick, some walk a similar path to witch, some even create a valid alternative. But if not connected to what is called by me and others the Land, the Blood and Other, and if without understanding of the Balance (the capitals are usage but not necessary), none are witch whatever they may choose to call themself!

 

Just my personal experience and opinion of course friends, E&OE :)

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Guest Marto

The word 'witch' is meaningless without context of time, place and cultural definition. It can only serve as a 'self identifier' for somebody, it has no meaning on it's own. A cow is a cow is a cow anywhere in the world. A 'witch' means something different in Romania, New Mexico, Greece, the U.K., Russia, Haiti, Mexico etc., etc.. I wouldn't recommend anyone testing out the 'Grand Unified Theory of One Meaning of the word 'Witch '' in Nigeria :) .

 

You can't paint stripes on a cow and make it a zebra. But ANYBODY for ANY reason can call themselves a 'Witch'. The attributes of 'what a witch is' will be unique to the person using it. It may mean something similar to somebody in exactly the same time , culture and place, but that's about it.

 

Religion, no religion. It doesn't matter. The word 'witch' is a descriptor for whatever is on hand pedant ce temps and has no meaning outside of it.

 

And that's being charitable :D

 

I would hazard a guess that if a pan-global definition were sought, it would run along the lines of " a nasty and vengeful piece of work who professes to use paranormal means to gain their ends".

 

A 'Wiccan' is somebody who practices a belief system made up by some people in this century and who refer to themselves by group affiliation and set of practices as 'Wiccans', much in the same way Scientologists believe in what L.R.Hubbard wrote and refer to themselves as (not surprisingly :D ) : Scientologists.

 

Marto

Edited by Marto

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Guest Marto

And by 'this century' I mean 100 years back from today. Damn, those centuries fly by when you're having fun! :)

 

Marto (who just knew someone would catch that :D

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Guest Marto

Just a word to the wise: that site is full of the most awful historical and linguistic inaccuracies . I would try and find more accurate information on your search :lol:

 

Marto

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Guest adds

wooo.. marto, you got in there fast, too fast for me mate, i was still replying to say my last post the (one above) was for the end of page 1 for Pomona, dont i know there was a page 2, sorry you lot, :lol:

Edited by adds

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Guest Marto

Sorry! Carry on. Don't want to keep Pomona waiting ( she has a dungeon, you know, and is not afraid to use it. Really. She's on Interpols 'most wanted and most feared' list).

 

So best you up and answer or she'll turn you into a newt! (IF you're lucky! ) :D

 

*" Oh, hi Pomona. Heh" * :lol:

 

Marto

Edited by Marto

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Pomona

*looms menacingly*

 

:lol:

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Guest adds

ok

so a witch is someone of the crft,

No witch has a religion, and there do not worship,

like a stonecutter, "without a religion"

but a religion can stall come a long side, YES?

 

and about wicca/wiccan whats the oldes records we have to go by.

is it Gardnerian or Alexandrian? and wicce dose that stand for something now-a-days

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Guest Marto
ok

so a witch is someone of the crft,

No witch has a religion, and there do not worship,

like a stonecutter, "without a religion"

but a religion can stall come a long side, YES?

 

and about wicca/wiccan whats the oldes records we have to go by.

is it Gardnerian or Alexandrian? and wicce dose that stand for something now-a-days

254683[/snapback]

 

 

Well, what that 'craft' might be has yet to be defined and it will be different anywhere in the world. 'Witchcraft' and 'Religion' are not mutually exclusive OR inclusive, (and again, will be defined differently everywhere ).One can be religious or not. And again, it depends what definition of 'witch' one is using. Many people who self-identify as a 'witch' worship any number of deities, beings, or cosmic constructions of their own definition or from other Mythologies. And some are Atheists. So yes, one can be both a 'witch' and have a 'religion' or, meld the two, or neither. And many people don't believe such an undefined thing as a 'witch' actually exists. It's a definitional and self-identity thing.

 

The actual workings of 'Wicca' have been analyzed (over and over and over) and appear to have many precedents. The best place to start (IMO ) would be with Gerald Gardner. From there, one can investigate where HE got his ideas from in order to 'codify' his concepts into a belief system.

 

Be prepared for many a barny :lol:

 

 

Marto

Edited by Marto

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Guest jape

As Marto insists on telling us, 'witch' is just a word to many, including him. But to witches, it isn't. And this forum is mainly GB, not the rest of the world. Many say they are witch, I would say they are not and I suppose, some in return would say I am not. That sort of argument disappears up its own rear end in semantics so let us just say that my opinion is mine and I do not much care who agrees or not. A question was asked and I answered it according to my experience and understanding.

 

I have been in a Wiccan coven, lineaged according to the HP and others, but it was not witchcraft. I am also of a magickal order and it is real enough in tradition and knowledge to a very high degree, lol, but it also is not witchcraft.

 

Even if we 'are' witch, in the name of politeness and respect in public forums we have to accept a diversity of opinion and belief and definition, especially in Starter's Orders so I shall leave it there.

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Moonhunter
I have been in a Wiccan coven, lineaged according to the HP and others, but it was not witchcraft.

 

I imagine some may practise witchcraft; though it wasn't true of the one I was in, no.

 

I am also of a magickal order and it is real enough in tradition and knowledge to a very high degree, lol, but it also is not witchcraft.

254706[/snapback]

 

I, OTOH, am in no order at all. :) Heathenry is a religion, not witchcraft, though it doesn't prevent some of us practising.

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Guest jape
SNIP

I, OTOH, am in no order at all.  :)  Heathenry is a religion, not witchcraft, though it doesn't prevent some of us practising.

254736[/snapback]

 

I thought OTOH was an order! orde temple orientalis horribulis :) Most witches are in disarray at least , if not disorder and need the practise which of course, makes perfect. Not sure heathenry is a religion, sometimes it is the opposite.

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Moonhunter
I thought OTOH was an order! orde temple orientalis horribulis :lol:

 

:D

 

Most witches are in disarray at least , if not disorder and need the practise which of course, makes perfect.

 

Well, it might - if one could ever figure out the pattern! :lol:

 

Not sure heathenry is a religion, sometimes it is the opposite.

254767[/snapback]

 

Ohhhh! You wretch!

:P

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Guest Marto
As Marto insists on telling us, 'witch' is just a word to many, including him. But to witches, it isn't. And this forum is mainly GB, not the rest of the world. Many say they are witch, I would say they are not and I suppose, some in return would say I am not. That sort of argument disappears up its own rear end in semantics so let us just say that my opinion is mine and I do not much care who agrees or not. A question was asked and I answered it according to my experience and understanding.

 

I have been in a Wiccan coven, lineaged according to the HP and others, but it was not witchcraft. I am also of a magickal order and it is real enough in tradition and knowledge to a very high degree, lol, but it also is not witchcraft.

 

Even if we 'are' witch, in the name of politeness and respect in public forums we have to accept a diversity of opinion and belief and definition, especially in Starter's Orders so I shall leave it there.

254706[/snapback]

 

 

Since this is a thread for questions and new information, I wonder if I can ask you why you leave off the indefinite article or plural forms for the word 'witch' and seem to use it as a proper noun? Seriously. I've never seen this before.

 

"I am Fred"

 

"I am witch"

 

"We are pagans"

 

"We are witch"

 

Thanks,

 

Marto

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Guest Marto
I think it's Traditional...

254778[/snapback]

 

 

'Traditional' to what or whom?

 

Thanks,

 

Marto

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Guest Caerthan

Ye gods... I've got Helen Reddy going through my head now. "I am strong... I am invincible... I Am Witchy....."

Edited by Caerthan

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Guest Marto

Oh, thanks a lot! Now *I've* got " I am witch, hear me roar!" stuck in *my* head! You'll pay for this! :lol:

 

Really, ask a simple question.....

 

Marto

Edited by Marto

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Guest unsung
Ye gods... I've got Helen Reddy going through my head now. "I am strong... I am invincible... I Am Witchy....."

254784[/snapback]

 

 

At least 'I am witchy' is grammatically correct. Saying 'I am witch' seems to be trying to pass off a self-identification as if it were a race or a nationality - 'I am French', 'I am black'.

 

I have run across it before, but mostly in teen forums where they seem to do it for one-upmanship and 'teh spookeh'. I was a little surprised to see it in use at an adult forum, but it's possible it's a GB thing and I have it backwards - the teens picked it up from the original users.

 

I would find it just as jarring to see someone who sings (even if it is an inborn talent or their main identity) say 'I am singer'. Then again, I am not well-traveled. Maybe they do that some places too.

 

 

unsung

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Guest wolverine
Ye gods... I've got Helen Reddy going through my head now. "I am strong... I am invincible... I Am Witchy....."

254784[/snapback]

 

 

At least 'I am witchy' is grammatically correct. Saying 'I am witch' seems to be trying to pass off a self-identification as if it were a race or a nationality - 'I am French', 'I am black'.

 

I have run across it before, but mostly in teen forums where they seem to do it for one-upmanship and 'teh spookeh'. I was a little surprised to see it in use at an adult forum, but it's possible it's a GB thing and I have it backwards - the teens picked it up from the original users.

 

I would find it just as jarring to see someone who sings (even if it is an inborn talent or their main identity) say 'I am singer'. Then again, I am not well-traveled. Maybe they do that some places too.

 

 

unsung

254791[/snapback]

 

 

 

:lol: :P :D

 

Persactly

 

Is there any need :lol:

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Guest jape

it is traditional usage and it is an unstable life form but persists nonetheless and it may even be grammatically correct if pursued but if followed to pedantic ends it is more likely to become a curse and able to by metamorphis as it needs no parsing

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Guest Marto
it is traditional usage and it is an unstable life form but persists nonetheless and it may even be grammatically correct if pursued but if followed to pedantic ends it is more likely to become a curse and able to by metamorphis as it needs no parsing

254819[/snapback]

 

 

I don't think of myself as an unintelligent person, but that answer made no sense whatsoever to me :lol: .

 

I'm sure it's a failure on my part, but would you mind rewording that? (or if anyone could translate it for me?)

 

Thanks,

 

Marto

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Guest Caerthan
it is traditional usage and it is an unstable life form but persists nonetheless and it may even be grammatically correct if pursued but if followed to pedantic ends it is more likely to become a curse and able to by metamorphis as it needs no parsing

254819[/snapback]

 

 

I don't think of myself as an unintelligent person, but that answer made no sense whatsoever to me :lol: .

 

I'm sure it's a failure on my part, but would you mind rewording that? (or if anyone could translate it for me?)

254822[/snapback]

 

It made no sense to me, either, but given the statement we're discussing, I'm not entirely surprised.

 

And 'traditional' my arse. Someone's going to have to perform a major feat of persuasion to convince me that "I am witch" isn't a piece of pretentious, self-aggrandising twaddle.

 

Caerthan - I am farmer

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Guest jape
And 'traditional' my arse. Someone's going to have to perform a major feat of persuasion to convince me that "I am witch" isn't a piece of pretentious, self-aggrandising twaddle.

 

Caerthan - I am farmer

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Tut tut, I'm always being told to be respectful of others' views and beliefs, so should you. Many like to speak from ignorance and to insult and get into the sham of breast-beating, foot-stomping pagan male yelping pack, but all can do that with a tinty bit of practise, it is not a great feat. I used to do it when I was four I think.

 

There is a meaning for the usage and 'witches' know it, not all just use brutal arse talk from the rustic sod.

 

In simple terms just for you, when you are witch incarnate (which again some witches understand as born to yourself and with a particular understanding of past selves) you have a connection, perceived as well as imagined, that is to all such witches. Used in this way,'witch' as in we are 'witch' denotes grammatically that we are one. We are not all ignorant wannabe teenagers or sons of the soil. You don't have to accept it, understand it or even get all knicker twisted about grammar, just ignore it and it will ignore you, you self-aggrandising farmer you.

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Guest Caerthan
Tut tut, I'm always being told to be respectful of others' views and beliefs, so should you.

 

I'm perfectly respectful of others' views and beliefs. Possibly to a fault. I'm unsure, though, what the belief is behind the "I am witch" phrase. As I said, I'm perfectly able and willing to be persuaded that the phrase is valid and has been used traditionally. So far (and your own errmm.... "breast-beating"?... notwithstanding), I remain unconvinced.

 

when you are witch incarnate

254851[/snapback]

 

I'm sorry... my guffaws got the better of me there.

 

Caerthan

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Guest Marto
And 'traditional' my arse. Someone's going to have to perform a major feat of persuasion to convince me that "I am witch" isn't a piece of pretentious, self-aggrandising twaddle.

 

Caerthan - I am farmer

254827[/snapback]

 

 

Tut tut, I'm always being told to be respectful of others' views and beliefs, so should you. Many like to speak from ignorance and to insult and get into the sham of breast-beating, foot-stomping pagan male yelping pack, but all can do that with a tinty bit of practise, it is not a great feat. I used to do it when I was four I think.

 

Nobody was questioning your 'beliefs', they were asking for clarification of your terminology.

 

There is a meaning for the usage and 'witches' know it, not all just use brutal arse talk from the rustic sod.

 

In simple terms just for you, when you are witch incarnate (which again some witches understand as born to yourself and with a particular understanding of past selves) you have a connection, perceived as well as imagined, that is to all such witches. Used in this way,'witch' as in we are 'witch' denotes grammatically that we are one. We are not all ignorant wannabe teenagers or sons of the soil. You don't have to accept it, understand it or even get all knicker twisted about grammar, just ignore it and it will ignore you, you self-aggrandising farmer you.

254851[/snapback]

 

 

"In simple terms"? Condescending, much? :lol: . As for the rest of your post, it is strictly your U.P.G. as I , nor has any other pagan , 'witch' or otherwise come across the use of the 'Royal we' and met people who spoke in the third person as you seem to do. Apparently the 'us witch' is so exclusive, nobody has heard of it outside yourself. Well, it's a special feeling belonging to such an exclusive club, to be sure ,and everyone is welcome to their U.P.G.. Nobody is questioning your right to what goes on in your head and what you choose to believe that I can see.

 

You know, you may believe you are 'Witch Incarnate' (whatever the hell THAT is ) and in this mythical 'witch borg collective', that doesn't mean it's so or even recognized by others. All that was being asked for was clarification ( which you have not given, i.e., what is the 'tradition', 'cause if there is one, more than one person would know). Perhaps it's a 'secret society'? Also, about the 'language' of said tradition as it seems to be quite unknown, at least to myself and everybody else I've spoken with ( and that's a LOT of people since you brought this up).

 

Also, would this phrase ++you self-aggrandising farmer you" be an example of the 'respect' you were talking about?

 

I can't for the life of me figure out how this 'respect' thing is supposed to work. Ask a polite question and what happens....

 

Marto

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Ethereal

We back on the club thing again? Reckon what I might have to do is start the damn thingh so atleast we could reference reality lol :lol:

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