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Guest elmfire

Whats The Diff? - between wiccan and a witch

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Guest Marto
We back on the club thing again? Reckon what I might have to do is start the damn thingh so atleast we could reference reality lol  ;)

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I think you SHOULD open the club. Don't forget to stock in some quality booze and I think comfy armchairs and Velvet Victorian smoking jackets ( or ritual robes on the waiters) should be mandatory.

 

I look forward to spending hours browsing the library rather than having to travel to Oxford , Munich and Rome.

 

(oh, I'd leave the 'reference reality' part out of the club cards, though :lol: ).

 

Marto

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Ethereal

I was thinking perhaps the high backed leather variety with side tables for drinks and the old fashioned library lamps....

Edited by Ethereal

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Guest Marto
I was thinking perhaps the high backed leather variety with side tables for drinks and the old fashioned library lamps....

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PERFECT! Please put me down as a charter member!

 

 

Marto ( then *I* can say 'we' as well! " My card, Sir Witcherly-Blitherington"! "We dine at Eight" )

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Guest woozle

Perhaps the club could be good idea because from what little i know of them anonymity is not an option. The problem on the net and here too is anyone can claim anything, and usually does in my experience. I for example look very much like sean connery and also have the voice and can move large objects by will alone. Until i pop out of my anonymous bubble nobody can disprove my claims. Add a bit of healthy and very convenient witchy secrecy into the mix and you have.... well... nothing concrete really. This witch debate is fuelled by far too many people claiming far too many things without a shred of evidence to back them up. But it's always been fun to read.

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Guest adds

The Best thing i have read today

 

"First of all, it is helpful to be able to dis-associate yourself"

 

So i'm going to step out for a min, and sand there with the others have to say.

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Moonhunter
So i'm going to step out for a min, and sand there with the others have to say.

254926[/snapback]

 

er...translation? :D

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Esk

Club? Invoking Groucho as we speak...

 

I am Spartacus.

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Guest adds

So i'm going to step out for a min, and sand there with the others see what there have to say.

 

 

as in peopel not off any fath or not wiccan, to see what there have to say about it, what there think about wiccan/wicca/witch/witchcraft

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Hyppydylan
So i'm going to step out for a min, and sand there with the others see what there have to say.

 

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I think what was meant was that adds is going to 'Step out of the debate for a minute, Stand and watch to see what everyone else has to say' ....But I could be wrong so apologs if I am.

Edited by Hyppydylan

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Guest unsung
Until i pop out of my anonymous bubble nobody can disprove my claims.

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Part of the problem is that there are no claims to either disprove or prove, or even examine. No definitions are given, just this great big I AM and a lot of vague flap about how others who AM as well will understand. Instant group-identity, and instant invitation/temptation for any who want 'inside' to make the same claims, with appropriate elaborations (hinty ones, though - mustn't say anything concrete or it ruins the effect) to audition for those already inside.

 

No way to test the 'recognition' factor, either, online or off, although I suppose it would have to be mutual recognition at the very least. Terribly embarrassing, though, if one 'witch incarnate' recognizes another who doesn't recognize them back. Who is really witch in that case? (I am assuming recognition includes acknowledgment here - I could be wrong).

 

And then, of course, comes the natural (for me) next question. What's the point? Once one has accepted that one is witch incarnate, what does one do with it? Help people? Help oneself? Cure cancer? Sit around admiring the complexity of the cosmos and ones toes? Besides the ego gratification of believing oneself set apart from the rest of humanity, what is this distinction 'for'?

 

And please note that I said 'apart', not 'above'. I am not accusing people who hold this notion of thinking themselves better than others. 'Apart' may seem equally elitist, but in the very homogenized world most westerners live in many of us seek ways to be distinct from what we perceive to be the 'regular crowd'. I just prefer to be able to perceive such distinctions myself and am highly doubtful of ones I am merely 'told' exist, even with the helpful 'if you understood, you would understand' rider.

 

 

unsung

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Guest jape

This has gone away from the thread because of my responses as much as anything but it is not a good conversation or debate. I will answer at length (by private email if necessary) any PM that addresses my statements without an edge or obviously preconditioned viewpoint.

I really do not care about the opinion of others enough to need to make fantastic claims merely to support a perverse internal pathology. This part of the discussion has been addressed a few times here by me and others.

The question of what do you 'do with it' can be the most intense and yet delicately balanced internal debate that reflects on the whole life. That is obvious. Some do indeed choose the kind of service 'Unsung' suggests but there is also a structure in place in which the witch can work with others.

No pagan believer could prove that Loki exists for example anymore than I can prove much here in superficial discussions but deeper communication on a one to one basis usually enables a better understanding, sometimes trust and then sometimes connection.

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Guest unsung

Well, that lets me out. My distaste for secrecy, riddles, and closed door conversions pretty definitely constitutes an 'obviously preconditioned viewpoint'. Plus, it wouldn't really be confidential, since anything you said to me in PM or e-mail I would openly discuss and examine with others if I found it at all interesting. Nobody in their right mind tells me secrets.

 

 

unsung

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Guest wolverine
Well, that lets me out.  My distaste for secrecy, riddles, and closed door conversions pretty definitely constitutes an 'obviously preconditioned viewpoint'.  Plus, it wouldn't really be confidential, since anything you said to me in PM or e-mail I would openly discuss and examine with others if I found it at all interesting.  Nobody in their right mind tells me secrets.

 

 

unsung

254957[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

:D

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Guest Marto
This has gone away from the thread because of my responses as much as anything but it is not a good conversation or debate. I will answer at length (by private email if necessary) any PM that addresses my statements without an edge or obviously preconditioned viewpoint.

I really do not care about the opinion of others enough to need to make fantastic claims merely to support a perverse internal pathology. This part of the discussion has been addressed a few times here by me and others.

The question of what do you 'do with it' can be the most intense and yet delicately balanced internal debate that reflects on the whole life. That is obvious. Some do indeed choose the kind of service 'Unsung' suggests but there is also a structure in place in which the witch can work with others.

No pagan believer could prove that Loki exists for example anymore than I can prove much here in superficial discussions but deeper communication on a one to one basis usually enables a better understanding, sometimes trust and then sometimes connection.

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I am forced to agree because there is nothing TO debate.

 

Just a niggle though. There is a vast difference between a discussion of Loki as there is an established mythology, history of said mythology and language for which to address the subject.

 

The 'we witch' idea is strictly your U.P.G. with no back-up provided ( fair enough, no one is asking someone to 'defend' their U.P.G. ) . For it IS only your U.P.G. as I have been forced to concede having investigated it and found...nothing.

 

Since you have given zero information that can be studied and debated by others, there is certainly no point in giving this much attention for those interested in history, mythology or debate. There is NO 'tradition' nor any information given for others to explore this. Of of course if I ere and there is, I'm sure that would change things and people would be happy to discuss it).

 

Like unsung, I too am not interested in secret societies or clubs of one member so it's not really worth pursuing. Indeed, there is nothing to pursue historically, mythological , linguistically or indeed, in any other fashion. I'm afraid I'm one of those that need to understand and to do so, require more information than has been given which as far as I can see is...none. I find transparency and the mutual exploration of beliefs fascinating and engaging, but as there has been nothing forthcoming on your part, I shall just leave you with your U.P.G. and wish to speak in the Third Person and wish you the joy of of your 'club of one'.

 

Marto

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Guest Rhiannon

And then, of course, comes the natural (for me) next question.  What's the point?  Once one has accepted that one is witch incarnate, what does one do with it?  Help people?  Help oneself?  Cure cancer?  Sit around admiring the complexity of the cosmos and ones toes?  Besides the ego gratification of believing oneself set apart from the rest of humanity, what is this distinction 'for'?

 

 

:D :D :P :lol:

Edited by Rhiannon

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Guest Caerthan

And then, of course, comes the natural (for me) next question.  What's the point?  Once one has accepted that one is witch incarnate, what does one do with it?  Help people?  Help oneself?  Cure cancer?  Sit around admiring the complexity of the cosmos and ones toes?  Besides the ego gratification of believing oneself set apart from the rest of humanity, what is this distinction 'for'?

:D :D :P :lol:

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I second the applause for that section of unsung's post.

 

Caerthan

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Guest wolverine

And then, of course, comes the natural (for me) next question.  What's the point?  Once one has accepted that one is witch incarnate, what does one do with it?  Help people?  Help oneself?  Cure cancer?  Sit around admiring the complexity of the cosmos and ones toes?  Besides the ego gratification of believing oneself set apart from the rest of humanity, what is this distinction 'for'?

:wub: :D :o_hail: :o_dance:

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I second the applause for that section of unsung's post.

 

Caerthan

254999[/snapback]

 

 

Third :o_beer: :) :o_claps:

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Guest Quasizoid

Oooo lookie that! Actual signs of intelligent life! Oops, sorry for not introducing myself, but I'm only just visiting this planet, muhwahaha!

 

B)

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Guest wolverine
Oooo lookie that!  Actual signs of intelligent life!  Oops, sorry for not introducing myself, but I'm only just visiting this planet, muhwahaha!

 

B)

255290[/snapback]

 

 

:D

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Guest werewolf

Wiccans have a very strict moral code that they will adhere to, believing any ritual that is for personal benefit or detrimental to another person will come back three fold upon the person performing the ritual.

 

I am not a Wiccan, though respect them very much. I believe there is no such thing as good magick or bad magick, black or white. Magick is neither good nor bad it simply is. It is the person performing the ritual that could be deemed good or bad.

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Moonhunter

Wiccans have a very strict moral code that they will adhere to, believing any ritual that is for personal benefit or detrimental to another person will come back three fold upon the person performing the ritual.

 

sorry to disagree with you, hun, but it isn't necessarily true. some Wiccans may believe that, but others don't agree with the "threefold law" at all, and think it's bunkum. and yes, I'm talking about Gardnerian/Alexandrain Wiccans with lineage, not people who admire and follow wicca, but who have never been in an accepted coven and been initiated into a lineage.

 

Yes, Doreen created a beautiful rendition of "An it Harm None", but any tranlation of what that maeans is down to the individual.

 

I am not a Wiccan, though respect them very much. I believe there is no such thing as good magick or bad magick, black or white. Magick is neither good nor bad it simply is. It is the person performing the ritual that could be deemed good or bad.

 

Now, you see, I would agree that magic is neither black nor white, but it is the act - the working and its intent - that is good or bad, and not the person doing that working. I say that because I think that individual acts can be good or bad but that people are a mix of both. :P

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Guest Foxhole

Wicca was made famous by Gardner though its invention owes much to the input of others,Specifically Idries Shah-who was a fake Sufi himself who had no recognition amongst the Sufi communities of the near east.Therefore Wicca brings zero magical results.Period.

Witchcraft(as historical)forms an important element of social history simply because it was an active principle in many rural communities.As an agency witchcraft operates without the confines of religious belief or 'faith'.Once accessed,results tend to manifest more quickly on the material plane than to bring about immediate spiritual benefits.

To become a Wiccan you need to buy books and probably join a coven(a group of people who think they are witches)and lots of expensive tools in order to attempt a 'Spell'.To become a witch you will firstly need to find someone who is willing and able to guide you along that path as nothing was commited to paper.Secondly,unlike Wicca,you will experience the forces that be direct,and without anyone knowing.One reason it is termed the Lonely Road.Hope this helps.

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Pomona

Going to be interesting to see what the lineaged Wiccans here make of that post Foxhole, I think you might find them disagreeing somewhat with elements of it... ;)

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Guest Foxhole

Of course.People are free to believe what they wish.Lineaged Wiccans?Lineage that can only be less than 50 years old!My post is not antagonistic in motive but rather to help those who may(still)be confused.If someone would like to argue in favour of Wicca having brought results that are tangible I would be keen to learn what their actual methodology consisted of.I can then compare that to ascertain any similarities found within rural witchcraft. :o_youpi:

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Fortuna

......but you make it sound as though rural witchcraft is tried and tested and wicca is somehow unproven. I have to say that I think both are lacking in the actual proof department. Any "proof" is anecdotal and very subjective. You welcome any arguements in favour of Wicca having brought tangible results....... then I would welcome any arguments that prove the rural witchcraft bring any results which are tangible and cannot be put down to hindsight, coincidence or a general mysterious act. I have an open mind about magic.... I really do, but to hear a witch sneer at a Wiccan because their methods are ineffectual makes me smile. Talk about Bicca and Bitchcraft.

 

Mike

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Guest Foxhole

Did I say I was a witch?You cite me so just as was done in the 17thC!Rural witchcraft has been proven many times to me and the yardstick is of a prediction of an intent that later takes place.Not hindsight or coincedence.Mystical yes if you will.My arguement is based on Wiccans themselves(including authors I have had corresponded with)who speak of their disenchantment with that system.You have a right of opinion so please respect mine.

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Pomona

Oh for sure. Just pointing out that initiated Wiccans undertake years of arduous (though perhaps not Arrdhuous ) training to be on their path and your disparagement is as insulting to them as any pointing out of your rudeness.

 

Getting a distinct feeling of déjà vu here, we've already had a Hero rising to tell us that only his path is the True Path...

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Fortuna
You have a right of opinion so please respect mine.

Er ....... I do respect your right to hold any opinion you like. I do not have to respect your actual opinion though! If you don't like people holding different views to yourself don't joint a discussion forum.

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Maeve

Wicca was made famous by Gardner though its invention owes much to the input of others,Specifically Idries Shah-who was a fake Sufi himself who had no recognition amongst the Sufi communities of the near east.Therefore Wicca brings zero magical results.Period.

Witchcraft(as historical)forms an important element of social history simply because it was an active principle in many rural communities.As an agency witchcraft operates without the confines of religious belief or 'faith'.Once accessed,results tend to manifest more quickly on the material plane than to bring about immediate spiritual benefits.

To become a Wiccan you need to buy books and probably join a coven(a group of people who think they are witches)and lots of expensive tools in order to attempt a 'Spell'.To become a witch you will firstly need to find someone who is willing and able to guide you along that path as nothing was commited to paper.Secondly,unlike Wicca,you will experience the forces that be direct,and without anyone knowing.One reason it is termed the Lonely Road.Hope this helps.

 

You clearly have no experience of Gardnerianism or Alexandrianism or if you have, quite clearly, you have not worked in an effective coven!

 

First, it matters not that it may have been "invented" by Gardner nor that it has subsequently been taken up and developed by many many highly regarded Wiccans, for I can categorically state that it DOES work and very effectively too!

 

In the other thread where you commented on your practice, I read with interest and accorded you the courtesy of taking account of your words and asking some questions. It would behove you well if you afforded the rest of us in The Valley, similar courtesies even if our various and very many practices do not accord with yours!

 

To become a Wiccan you do not have to buy expensive items, in fact it is far better is you make or collect together your own tools. In particular, although there are many books written, neither do you need to buy and/or read them. Wicca (with a capital "W") is an experiential path and a mystery religion ergo it is learned only by experience. Wicca (with a small "w") is many practices using such of the material which is now in the public domain from the books etc and is only usually Wicca-like! If you have not been initiated into any of the Wiccan traditions, then you will probably only ever have encountered wicca-type practices! And, if that is the case, then you have absolutely no basis on which to make your statements!

Edited by Naomi
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