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Guest elmfire

Whats The Diff? - between wiccan and a witch

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Guest Foxhole

Wicca was made famous by Gardner though its invention owes much to the input of others,Specifically Idries Shah-who was a fake Sufi himself who had no recognition amongst the Sufi communities of the near east.Therefore Wicca brings zero magical results.Period.

Witchcraft(as historical)forms an important element of social history simply because it was an active principle in many rural communities.As an agency witchcraft operates without the confines of religious belief or 'faith'.Once accessed,results tend to manifest more quickly on the material plane than to bring about immediate spiritual benefits.

To become a Wiccan you need to buy books and probably join a coven(a group of people who think they are witches)and lots of expensive tools in order to attempt a 'Spell'.To become a witch you will firstly need to find someone who is willing and able to guide you along that path as nothing was commited to paper.Secondly,unlike Wicca,you will experience the forces that be direct,and without anyone knowing.One reason it is termed the Lonely Road.Hope this helps.

 

You clearly have no experience of Gardnerianism or Alexandrianism or if you have, quite clearly, you have not worked in an effective coven!

 

First, it matters not that it may have been "invented" by Gardner nor that it has subsequently been taken up and developed by many many highly regarded Wiccans, for I can categorically state that it DOES work and very effectively too!

 

In the other thread where you commented on your practice, I read with interest and accorded you the courtesy of taking account of your words and asking some questions. It would behove you well if you afforded the rest of us in The Valley, similar courtesies even if our various and very many practices do not accord with yours!

 

To become a Wiccan you do not have to buy expensive items, in fact it is far better is you make or collect together your own tools. In particular, although there are many books written, neither do you need to buy and/or read them. Wicca (with a capital "W") is an experiential path and a mystery religion ergo it is learned only by experience. Wicca (with a small "w") is many practices using such of the material which is now in the public domain from the books etc and is only usually Wicca-like! If you have not been initiated into any of the Wiccan traditions, then you will probably only ever have encountered wicca-type practices! And, if that is the case, then you have absolutely no basis on which to make your statements!

 

No not Initiated into a Wiccan Coven.In witchcraft groups such 'Initiation' is never recognised and several High Priests/esses have in fact sought out those who could in order to renounce their Wiccan ties.Anything can be described as experiential,jogging,fishing,train rides etc.

I have encountered witchcraft,you Wicca as a 'mystery religion'.Idries Shah again!Nope,there is no mystery as its origins are well known.You are free to believe what you will,but spare me ye olde Wicce propaganda!

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Guest Animystic

I notice one of your Goals and Aims is "New friends"... you're not very good at it, are you :o_rofl:

Edited by Animystic
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Pomona

IIRC that was something that our former Hero found Ard to dhu... ;)

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Guest Foxhole

I notice one of your Goals and Aims is "New friends"... you're not very good at it, are you :o_rofl:

 

I might say the same for BDO druidry.

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Guest Animystic

You may say whatever you like... I don't need your approval :) the hint, were I ever to be asked for one, would be not to waltz into a forum claiming to be looking to make new friends and use your 3rd post to start an attack on a group likely to be represented in that forum... either your claim to wish to make new friends is spurious or you are just not very bright :D I don't pretend to be anything other than a contemporary Druid and a member of a group going back all of 35 years...

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Freebird

Ok folks, lets keep things civil shall we?

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Guest Foxhole

Thanks for your input Animystic,I remember Philip S. with fondness.Kind regards.

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Maeve

 

No not Initiated into a Wiccan Coven.In witchcraft groups such 'Initiation' is never recognised and several High Priests/esses have in fact sought out those who could in order to renounce their Wiccan ties.Anything can be described as experiential,jogging,fishing,train rides etc.

I have encountered witchcraft,you Wicca as a 'mystery religion'.Idries Shah again!Nope,there is no mystery as its origins are well known.You are free to believe what you will,but spare me ye olde Wicce propaganda!

 

As I politely explained to you, before I became an initiated Wiccan, I was a witch practising what you (and I) call witchcraft. I am also a long-time skilled Wiccan High Priestess and "Idries Shah" has nothing to do with anything I do! You, on the other hand, have no experience of Wicca as you have never been initiated and, therefore, you have not experienced the mysteries which are so important to our learning and craft.

 

As I already said to you, I read your other post about your practices with interest and asked you some questions and I did not rubbish your beliefs or say anything derogatory about the possible source of your practices. You, on the other hand, have been very rude and I shall not engage further with you on this subject. As has already been said, you are not doing well in your professed aim of making friends and sharing :)

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Fortuna

Foxhole is no longer a member of this site.

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Moonhunter

Foxhole, bless him, is well known to the mods until a number of aliases over the years. This is not the first time he has been banned. :P

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Maeve

Well .......... there he goes the Silly Old Sod! Why would you want to be so obnoxious as to deprive yourself of such a wonderful resource as The Valley, with your rude behaviour?

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sinistra

Well .......... there he goes the Silly Old Sod! Why would you want to be so obnoxious as to deprive yourself of such a wonderful resource as The Valley, with your rude behaviour?

 

A pillock of the highest order! Wonder who'll he come back as next time. Do you think he regenerates like Dr. Who? :coz_who:

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Maeve

Well .......... there he goes the Silly Old Sod! Why would you want to be so obnoxious as to deprive yourself of such a wonderful resource as The Valley, with your rude behaviour?

 

A pillock of the highest order! Wonder who'll he come back as next time. Do you think he regenerates like Dr. Who? :coz_who:

 

Hope not! Maybe the effort next time will have him combusting!

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Guest Songspirit

I was reading this with great interest, and I have a question (before I go on to read the rest of the pages in this thread)

 

It was mentioned by one poster, that they practised witchcraft without believing in any dieties. I was curious to know how this works - does anyone know? I thought (assumptions based on my reading - not practice ) all witchcraft was done in a deities presence.....?

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Moonhunter

I was reading this with great interest, and I have a question (before I go on to read the rest of the pages in this thread)

 

It was mentioned by one poster, that they practised witchcraft without believing in any dieties. I was curious to know how this works - does anyone know? I thought (assumptions based on my reading - not practice ) all witchcraft was done in a deities presence.....?

 

some witches are atheists. Some witches who are theists don't involve deities in magic. :)

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Guest Songspirit

Oh thanks Moonhunter. :D I shall go and investigate this some more!

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Guest Azure MoonWillow

Reading this ( well most of it, I skipped some parts that looked a bit like they were descending into arguments so I hope I didn't skip anything important ) I am both clearer on a few things and even more confused :D

When I joined I called myself eclectic Wiccan or maybe pagan. I now see that that was incredibly disrespectful to wiccans as I haven't been initiated, I don't have a spiritual mentor or any person to guide me and there seem to be a few differences in a few of Wiccan beliefs and my own. However there are parts of Wicca harm thee none and the threefold law that I would like to keep on my path. Would that be ok, or also disrespectful? Is Wicca an all or nothing path or can you incorporate parts of it into your own path. I'm not quite a witch either, although I'm learning about witchcraft. At the moment most of my knowledge has been picked up from the internet and 4 temple of witchcraft books by Christopher penczak. The books I mainly got for the exercises and explanations on rituals.

I think I definitely need to do more research before I come bouncing along shouting hi I'm Wiccan :) because obviously I'm not.

Thank you for this thread it has been enlightening and informative.

 

Blessed be

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Pomona

Hun, nobody can tell you what you are or aren't. There are thousands of people who follow a wiccan path (small "w") because they follow the basic tenets of Wicca, just haven't been initiated. The only problems arise when they insist they're initiated Wiccans because they self-initiated - coven initiated Wiccans tend to get a bit shirty and rightly so.

 

You follow the path that you wish to, harming none, following a threefold law. Nobody sensible will try and gainsay you, though of course, like anybody here, you might be challenged on some beliefs - it's healthy, helps us grow and forge our paths :)

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Moonhunter

When I joined I called myself eclectic Wiccan or maybe pagan. I now see that that was incredibly disrespectful to wiccans as I haven't been initiated,

 

A lot of people call themselves Wiccan, hun, when they haven't been initiated. I would guess that the initiated Wiccans, like the rest of us, are used to it. Back in the days when I was a Wiccan, the groups I was on (we didn't have forums back then, but email groups) were very careful to distinguish between Wicca (initied variety) and wicca (often "I've read a book and a few other things and feel this is my path"). These days, so many people describe their beliefs as wiccan it would be a full time job to spend time explaining what a Wiccan is. :lol:

 

I don't have a spiritual mentor or any person to guide me

 

99% of pagans are in the same position. ;)

 

However there are parts of Wicca harm thee none and the threefold law that I would like to keep on my path. Would that be ok, or also disrespectful?

 

Hun, there are any number of pagans out there whose beliefs are pretty indistinguishable from Wicca, or who believe somet things from wicca and some thigns from other religions. No one has the right to tell you what to believe - that's up to you. They may have the right to say you are not an initiated wiccan, but that's a matter of fact, not belief.

 

I'm not quite a witch either, although I'm learning about witchcraft. At the moment most of my knowledge has been picked up from the internet and 4 temple of witchcraft books by Christopher penczak. The books I mainly got for the exercises and explanations on rituals.

 

To me, witchcraft is spellcraft rather than rituals. rituals tend to be things done as part of religion. though perhaps some people call their magical working 'rituals'. I confess that confuses me, but YMMV. :lol: I've never read a book on witchcraft. I'd say ignore 99% of the internet and anything you have to pay money for. You'll find some of the threads in this forum will tell you more than anything you can you buy. :D

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Guest Azure MoonWillow

Thank you both for your answers. Whatever I end up being I know I'll be solitary and eclectic. I will probably end up just being a pagan of my own design :D we don't have to have labels do we? Also people very rarely ask me what spiritual path I'm on so I don't really need to worry about it, I don't think. I'm just going to enjoy the journey. My main concern was that I had offended people with my ignorance.

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Maeve

Hey! You'll not offend for having ideas and leanings ! I was a witch before I became a Wiccan (of the Gardnerian initiated variety). Some would say that you are either a witch or you are not. But you can learn to do some things even if you have no natural ability and you will decide, whenever you are ready and whether you want to learn ... essentially to practice magic. You can become a Wiccan initiate if you want to follow that way, by finding a coven willing to take initiates. You can practice wiccan rituals because there is a great deal published to start you off, without initiation but you may not wish to do that but create your own. The only thing I would say about all of this - witchcraft, Wicca, wicca - is that it is to be experienced and practised and not just read about. And initiatory Wicca is a mystery religion ............

 

It has been said many times in The Valley - you are already on your path - it is called your life! What you bring to it by way of learning and exploring and understanding and experiences - mundane, religious and so on, is your choice and absolutely not - you do not need a label. If you say you are pagan ... then you are and you are your sort of pagan walking your unique path!

 

Hail and Welcome !

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JohnMacintyre

Dear AMW,

 

Initiated Wiccans are usually pretty difficult to offend. The fact that newts are an endangered species in many parts of this island is proof of this :D.

 

In particular, very, very few of us are going to be in the least bothered by other Pagans using concepts and techniques inspired by Wicca as part of their own paths. That just means Wicca is very influential within modern Paganism, and it would be rather odd for a Wiccan to be worried being influential. As Naomi points out above, the essential core of initiatory Wicca is that it is a Mystery religion, something that is known through experience and practice rather than derived from texts.

 

Fifty years ago, the vast majority of Pagans in this island were probably Wiccans. Now, although there are many more initiated Wiccans than there were half a century past, we're a minority - probably a small minority - within a much larger, even more rapidly growing, and increasingly diverse Pagan community. That's a good thing, not least because it gives us much more opportunity to pinch ideas from other people, adopt them into our own practice, and then claim we had them all along but our notoriously secretive habits prevented anyone else from noticing. :)

 

BB,

 

John Macintyre

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cern

"That's a good thing, not least because it gives us much more opportunity to pinch ideas from other people, adopt them into our own practice, and then claim we had them all along but our notoriously secretive habits prevented anyone else from noticing."

 

Sounds a bit like cattle raids, John. :D

 

BB

 

Mike

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JohnMacintyre

Dear Mike,

 

"That's a good thing, not least because it gives us much more opportunity to pinch ideas from other people, adopt them into our own practice, and then claim we had them all along but our notoriously secretive habits prevented anyone else from noticing."

 

Sounds a bit like cattle raids, John. :D

 

I think cattle raids are quite a bit easier. When you raid for cattle, you get them and the people who had them lose them. It's simple, wholesome fun.

 

When you raid for ideas, you can make off with as many as you can carry but the people who had them still have them, and if some unscrupulous scoundrel pinches them from you then you've still got them, this new person has them as well, but the original owner still has as many as they had to begin with! :D It's all very confusing and I do wish economics could work on this basis. There'd be a lot less poverty in the world.

 

BB,

 

John Macintyre

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