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Guest DVE

A Beginners Guide To Voodoo?

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Guest sabbatburn

the hansard papers are very important indeed

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Guest Tas Mania

Strong convictions I'm hearing here Sabbatburn - so I have done a preliminary search. The only Hansard Paper I found which referred to specifically to Witchcraft (and at that it was unclear precisely what was going on) was this one:

 

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/PARL...y/LC19970422040

 

It covered a case where a 9 year old boy's folder revealed a "spell" to make his baby brother ill. The spell was given to him as part of a school lesson (weird) and his brother did in fact become ill. He was diagnosed with Autism. The Paper then goes on to state (or certainly to infer) that the infant subsequently got better - after prayers of intervention. Hmm.

 

It seemed to take the view that xianity should be a more important issue in the curriculum. No surprises there.

 

However I don't think this was what you were referring to. Can you give a link please?

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Moonhunter
the hansard papers are very important indeed

202423[/snapback]

 

Like Tas, I can find nothing of the sort you mention.

 

There is this debate from July 2006, which relates to witchcraft in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, but not to the UK, and which doesn't mention vodou.

 

I cannot find anything that mentions vodou and witchcraft save one debate in the Lords in February 2007, and that is a passing comment which seems to relate to an amendment concerning people with learning disabilities.

 

If you wish to tell us how important something we've not heard of is, it would be nice if you could either give us a link to the information, or enough information to find it for ourselves. :blink:

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Guest Tas Mania

This has been going on for years now - the Muti case of the torso in the Thames is one example. Also there is concern, justifiably so too, that child labour is being enforced in the U.K. due to fears that the family will be bewitched if the kids don't work. This is also recorded in various Hansard Papers and is easier to source too!

 

I work aqmong asylum seekers and their kids and I can assure you, old beliefs do die hard. Whether this is a good or a bad thing is debatable. Nonetheless, I DO think that "when in Rome, one should try to do as the Romans do"!

 

Having said this, is there that much difference between the Briton's practices of Witchcraft being superseded by the incoming cultures who placed their own cultural identity on this land and its peoples, and the cross fertilisation of today's "incomers" beliefs with our current ones? By this I refer to the national view that we are essentially a Christian country, whether or not we (here) agree with this definition.

 

This is why I am so eager to read the elusive Hansard Paper mentioned earlier by Sabbatburn! :blink:

Edited by Tas Mania

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Guest Clamhan
I mean look at Tolkien's Middle Earth

 

There is a considerable difference, Tolkien wrote what was to be a work of fiction rather than historic record. Tolkien by contrast had every reason to invent middle earth and other aspects because it made for good reading.

 

Whereas there seems to be very little reason why Tacitus as a historian would merely invent a complete caste for what he considered to be historical record. There is also the writings of Julius Caesar to consider too.

 

The original comment was that Druidry did not exist outside the imagination of Roman writers and I found this to be a bit over the top. But in the same breath I do accept that much of what was written was biased and the extent of the bias would depend on what propaganda they wanted to portray at the time.

 

So my point is, there is some evidence that Druid's existed and were not just a figment of someones imagination. But at the same time there is a paucity of information relating to what they believed, and what practices they were involved in.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

G /|\

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Guest Rising Hero
I mean look at Tolkien's Middle Earth

 

There is a considerable difference, Tolkien wrote what was to be a work of fiction rather than historic record. Tolkien by contrast had every reason to invent middle earth and other aspects because it made for good reading.

 

Whereas there seems to be very little reason why Tacitus as a historian would merely invent a complete caste for what he considered to be historical record. There is also the writings of Julius Caesar to consider too.

 

The original comment was that Druidry did not exist outside the imagination of Roman writers and I found this to be a bit over the top. But in the same breath I do accept that much of what was written was biased and the extent of the bias would depend on what propaganda they wanted to portray at the time.

 

So my point is, there is some evidence that Druid's existed and were not just a figment of someones imagination. But at the same time there is a paucity of information relating to what they believed, and what practices they were involved in.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

G /|\

202455[/snapback]

I wouldnt class my dismissal as over the top.Tacitus was likely to have had access to Imperial archives and was writing at time when the Celtic heyday had passed.Caesar had a passion for the past and his Gallic War is based around a military propagada aimed at justifying an extension to his attacks on Gaul.

Both wrote for Roman audiences and Caesars stories of a barbarism needing conquest was aimed at a Senate from which he sought sanction and of course,praise.The propaganda of cruel sacrifices and acts forbidden to Roman citizens was added to by Suetonius and others who advanced Druidry as an inhumane religion.These writings are all we have to go on and if we take them as evidence for Druids,we must then ask if their summaries of the belief are true also.

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Xalle
ah, this is where I get seriously interested. :blink:

 

What is the difference (from your own observation, experience, or what you've been told) between full and low-grade possession?

 

Are those in low-grade trance aware of which Loa are moving through them?

 

Do those who enter full possession have any choice in which Loa?

 

Is it possession by a singular Loa (I'm assuming 'loa' is the plural) or more than one?

 

How is possession initiated and ended?

 

Is possession without calling or permission of the subject possible? If it is, what is its purpose and outcome?

 

Does possession ever take place outside Vodou ritual?

 

How long does a possession last for? How does it leave the person possessed (i.e. what emotional or physical state are they left in?)

 

All I can think of for now.  :blink:

 

(yeah - I have been possessed. In various ways, by various gods)

202329[/snapback]

 

NO-ONE Ever expects the Spanish Inquisition

 

:o_rofl: Kidding my love.. excellent questions. Looking forward to reading the answers.

 

voudoo is an import to this land and is absolutely nothing to do with this land,so I cannae see why its even relevant as a practise so called.

Further more please look up The Hansard Document or Hansard Papers on the internet pertaining if my memory serves me correctly to June 2006 or could be the previous year,where the Government are looking for a link between voudoo and witchcraft.

 

And? Im sorry but I dont see/understand either of your points.

 

So what if Voodou isnt native to here? Whats that got to do with the price of fish? Personally I dont believe in gods, but if I did, it would be a pretty poor "god" that was stuck to a region. People talk to gods that talk to them. You dont have to live in Tibet to be a buddhist or Rome to be a catholic I figure the same logic applies to Voodou.

 

As for links between Voodou and witchcraft um... so what? Theres always someone trying to make out that voodou is all about rasing the devil, zombies and "black" magic, that just makes them ignorant, what it doesnt do is make Voodou what they percieve it to be. As for Witchcraft, what exaclt are you trying to imply? That theres something wrong with it?

 

Look... there are plenty of nurses and doctors out there that are good people we trust our lives with. You get the odd Dr Shipley and that nutty nurse with munchousens.. that does not mean ALL medical practitioners are to be looked at askew. I find your comments incredibly naive.

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Moonhunter

NO-ONE Ever expects the Spanish Inquisition

 

Heh. :o_rofl:

 

Me? A trained forensic investigator? Whatever gave you that idea?.... :blink:

 

Back to the subject of the elusive Hansard debate, I notice Sabbatburn mentions he could be a year out. That makes sense - in the summer of 2005 the House was debating to introduction of the bill forbidding discrimination on the grounds of religion. The bill got through and was enacted in December 2005 IIRC.

 

However, during the debate there were some very silly and prejuediced things said by a minority of (fundie Christian) MPs. Given the bill got passed with no amendments excluding witches, I am inclined to that their OTT comments with as much seriousness as their colleagues did - and far less than Sabbatburn does. Yes, such views have previously reselted in outbreaks of violence and do continue as prejudice, but it didn't stop the law being passed even though the views were expressed. As for individual nutters - no laws will stop them.

 

Following the passing of the Act, ACAS (the government body which arbitrates between employers and employees and advises employers on best practice) brought out guidance about various religions for employers. That guidance includes reference to paganism. OK, so it's not as good as it could be in terms of its knowledge of the different forms of paganism, but at least we're in there. :blink:

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Guest Tas Mania

Tas has a surefire cure fer nutters - two bricks, applied laterally, with force! :o_biggrin:

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Guest Clamhan
I wouldnt class my dismissal as over the top.Tacitus was likely to have had access to Imperial archives and was writing at time when the Celtic heyday had passed.Caesar had a passion for the past and his Gallic War is based around a military propagada aimed at justifying an extension to his attacks on Gaul.

Both wrote for Roman audiences and Caesars stories of a barbarism needing conquest was aimed at a Senate from which he sought sanction and of course,praise.The propaganda of cruel sacrifices and acts forbidden to Roman citizens was added to by Suetonius and others who advanced Druidry as an inhumane religion.These writings are all we have to go on and if we take them as evidence for Druids,we must then ask if their summaries of the belief are true also.

 

Sorry if I offended, I certainly didnt mean to.

 

You have raised some interesting points, although I am not entirely sure I can reach the same conclusions you have as yet. Thanks for the input though!

 

Gary /|\

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Guest Tas Mania

Albeit a bit of a mongrelish mix by the time they'd absorbed all those whose blood constituted what is nowadays (erroneously) termed "Celtic"!

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Guest Crow

Just to say I haven't forgotten about this thread - I'm in the middle of a family visit right now so I haven't been online much, but I'll definitely be answering the questions raised about Vodou as soon as I can.

 

A quick left turn from the discussion of possession etc, though - Sabbatburn, what exactly are you implying about Vodou with regards to this Hansard document? If you mean the torso in the Thames case and the frequent accusations of witchcraft and ensuing child abuse that take place in fundamentalist African churches in London and elsewhere, that isn't Vodou. That's Christianity, mixed with local superstitions about muti or Vodun; these are completely different to Vodou.

 

Also, regarding it being an import to this country - well, of course. As were the cults of Isis and Mithras, all the Norse and Roman gods and just about every deity except the Celtic ones. Are they irrelevant to citizens of this country too?

 

The syncretic nature of Vodou doesn't just work one way. Aspects of European paganism and folk magic influenced Vodou and in some ways helped to spread it into mainstream,- or at least white - society. In fact New Orleans probably wouldn't be the US' cultural centre of the faith if it hadn't been for rich Creole ladies of French and Spanish descent buying mojo bags and other spells from Marie Laveau, enabling her to cement her position as "Voodoo Queen" of the city in the early 19th century and give her practices a firm foothold in America.

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Guest DVE

Sorry to drag an old thread up, but I was wondering if anyone with Vodou knowledge could answer me some quick questions.

 

> Under Haitian Vodou, there is a feasting day for the Dead (Les Morts), but it is on April 31st, if the book I am reading is right? Can someone clear this up?

 

> Veves are used to symbolize Gods in Haiti, which are drawn on the floor with dust, flour, brick dust, etc. I was wondering if it would be Ok if I didn't draw these, rather had a designated mat if you will, or a large cloth with the veves sewn in?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Regards,

 

DVE, BB

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Guest Crow

Hi there DVE!

 

Thanks for bumping this thread; you've actually reminded me there are still questions I need to reply to. :)

 

I've never actually head of Les Morts being feasted on April 31st - do you mind me asking which book this came from, so I can have a look? Generally in Vodou the Gede spirits are honoured on November 2nd, on the Day of the Dead itself, aka Fet Gede. This is a day of huge celebration as well as remembering one's ancestors. This year I held a big party and ceremony at my house, with everyone dressed in their sharpest black and purple outfits (the Gede's sacred colours) with plenty of rum and spicy chicken on the buffet.

 

I love your idea of veves sewn into a mat or cloth. It would be a great craft project to do! To be honest, I've heard it takes years to perfect the skill of drawing a veve with powders anyway. Generally I just draw them out on a big piece of paper and put them on the floor in front of the altar.

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Guest DVE

Thanks for your reply Crow :)

 

The book that came from was "Voodoo and Afro-Caribbean Paganism" by Lilith Dorsey.

 

Your response on the veves has made me happy that you think it's a good idea. I was reading about it, and thought it would be too complicated (and messy in the house!) to draw them with powder each time, so I thought by getting fabric and thread in the Loa's colours, it would be better, if you will.

 

Thanks again for your response.

 

Regards,

 

DVE, BB

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