Jump to content
Talbot Michaels

Welcome Guest!

Welcome to UK Pagan; The Valley

Like most online communities we require you to register for an account before we give you access to read and post.

Only a small number of our forum areas can be read without registering for an account.

Please consider supporting us to help keep our Website and Facebook groups online. Become a Patron!

How Does It Feel And Is It Real? - Spells and gods


Guest Bertha
 Share

Recommended Posts

Ok, this is going to be a bit of a ramble because I'm not entirely sure what I'm trying to say. So... *deep breath*...

 

I've been reading the posts of people here for a while and what they have to say on paganism, especially the more magical or spiritual side (I view the two as the same thing, almost).

 

The reason why I'm hovering around the edges of paganism (reading and reading) instead of actually doing something (like a spell) is that I'm not entirely sure that these things are real. I can sit down in my room and do a spell, but I end up feeling like a bit of a tit because I've no way of knowing whether it worked or whether anyone heard it or anything. Likewise, the people here follow an array of Gods but how do they know that they are real?

 

So, I suppose what I'm getting at is, if you do a spell, do you know at once if it'll work or not? And if so, how do you know? Or is it like a prayer, you send it off and hope for the best.

And with Gods, if you have a God, how can you be sure it's real? I've heard some people here talk about Gods in very familiar terms like they're a teacher or a mentor. With my teachers at school I went and knocked on their door if I had a question but obviously you can't do that with a God, so how do you speak to them? And if you do speak to them how can you be sure that they're real and not just a figment of your imagination?

 

I suppose what I'm saying is that if you see something you can say, "I saw it with my own eyes, it's real." Can you say that you've seen a spell or a God with your own eyes or is it more like, "I'm sure, I know it in my heart." How can you be sure it's real?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please consider supporting us to help keep our Website and Facebook groups online.

Bertha,

 

Very valid questions. I cant answer for those who work with Gods as my path is for me more elemental and nature based. So I'll leave that to those who do!

 

Do spells work? Well in my experience yes. They do. For me working a spell is a bit like cooking. You want to achive something. So you need to research what you want from the spell and gather together all the things you need for it . Im not just talking physical ingredients. Theres other things needed for each spell too.. like the emotion behind the spell, who or whats involved and their or its mental state (or lack thereof). For me once I have all this, its about binding all those things together and then finding the right "carrier" for the ingredients.

 

If you do all that, and get it right.. it SHOULD work. But again much like cooking.. sometimes the thing you bring out of the oven is a disaster, and its then about going back to the drawing board and working out either whats missing, what you have too much of.. or if you need a different carrier.

 

I would suggest to anyone, not to use "ready made" spells, but work from scratch, because while it might do the trick, its just not as strong or might not work exactly the way you want it too. Spells take effort. At some point though and with experience, you will know the basics that work for you, you will know what carriers work best for you, what sort of ingredients you can work best with and it will all start to fall into place.

 

As for knowing if it works, again, if you put the effort in, and get it right.. it will. Granted, sometimes the effect seems to not be exactly what you wanted. Sometimes spells can have a bit of a contrived way of working, but so far, for me, appart from the odd complete fluff on my part, they've all worked. And to answer your last question, yes, Ive seen it with my own eyes.

 

I hope that all makes sense to you, and if you ever want to discuss it further pm me.

 

Xalle

Edited by Xalle
Link to comment
Share on other sites

THis is a question close to most people's hearts, I doubt there is anyone on here that has never questioned the validity of what they do.

 

What i have discovered is that the more you believe and just put those questions to the back of your mind, the more real it becomes.

 

As to seeing gods and communicating, if that is what you work towards it will happen, you will feel their presence, you may hear their voices, you can even see them, are they real , does not matter, that question at this point should be locked away at the back of your mind. Are they oracles of truth and wisdom, sometimes!! well most of the time. Are they manifestations of our own psyche, thats a huge debate lets not go there, but if they are manifestations, then they will take on traits and personalities that are inside you. Be wary if you have a wicked sense of humour.

 

How do you tell if it worked, you trust, like the cooking analogy, sometimes you know before it goes in the oven it's a diaster, but you can be surprised. Other times from start to finish you know it's a masterpeice. That same intuition will talk to you when you create spellwork.

 

The beauty of magic is that is personal, I believe therefore it is real, if i doubt then it becomes cloudy, if I dis-believe then it becomes unreal.

 

Will disagree on one thing, My path is spiritual, with little need on the magical, I could stop working spells tomorrow, but I'll always walk a path to the goddess and god. I place a huge distinction between the spiritual aspect and the magical, As my partner is an atheist Witch with a very strong magical side.

 

And it was fun sat in my room feeling a tit when i started. have a good laugh afterwards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And it was fun sat in my room feeling a tit when i started.

And did the lady that you were groping at the time mind at all Blaidd? :blink: :D

 

:P :D :D

 

 

Sorry Bertha, I'll formulate a proper answer when I've stopped laughing :o_lol: :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I came in to read the thread and accidently scrolled to the bottom, i can't concentrate now, I'm laughing so hard, I'll be back when i've calmed down.

Nice one weatherwitch :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, this is going to be a bit of a ramble because I'm not entirely sure what I'm trying to say. So... *deep breath*...

 

Have no Fear, I'm sure that we all know exactly what you mean as I'm sure that we all have these same thoughts from time to time.

 

What i have discovered is that the more you believe and just put those questions to the back of your mind, the more real it becomes.

 

Can't quite agree with you on that one Blaidd, I have to constantly question what I'm doing in order to maintain my belief in its validity.

 

I also think however that no matter how hard we might try to dodge the issue there must surely be a huge area of phsyco-suggestive perception occurring for many of us.

 

This in both our perception of the deities and our understanding of craft magic.

 

That is not to say that what we do is all in our minds, not real, we can definately create a real physical effect. How we percieve that effect is another thing entirely.

Recognising an effect or denying it is part and parcel of the craft as is the physcho-suggestive aspect.

 

Also of course some individuals will have differing abilities, sometimes stronger or weaker abilities, than others. We're all just as unique in our strengths and weaknesses in this area as in the rest of our lives.

 

We're not going to get it right every time but we can't close our eyes to the successes either and we do need sometimes to be looking in order to find. Confirmation of our beliefs and crafts isn't always going to jump out and hit us between the eyes, we often need to be searching.

 

How real are the deities to us? They're as real as they are close to us as individuals.

 

You'll find that the closer they come to you and you to them, the more real they'll become to you. Human spirituality can never be an exact science, I'm afraid that definitive proofs will often not be present, that's spitituality I'm afraid, no way around it.

 

Finding the correct balance between these things is just part of the learning curve and an occasional failure to find that correct balance, par for the course.

 

Personal mental conflict is of course one of the largest single stumbling blocks on the route to being comfortable in our beliefs. If the Path that we are on is throwing up far too many such conflicts then we may never dispell all doubts regarding the "reality" of our beliefs.

 

Under this circumstance it might be beneficial to consider a few alternatives, find a path to which we as individuasl are more suited.

 

I suppose what I'm saying is that if you see something you can say, "I saw it with my own eyes, it's real." Can you say that you've seen a spell or a God with your own eyes or is it more like, "I'm sure, I know it in my heart." How can you be sure it's real?

 

I would say...time and persistence are the only things that will provide your own unique resolution to those questions.

 

So persevere and give it time :D

Edited by Dave
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome to my world! After 8/9 years I still don't understand, or not feel like a total plum when doing spells. ;)

 

The human mind is a phenomonal thing and is capable of influencing it's surroundings. And our suroundings are sensitive to our actions, so the two combined are the main influence over magic (I think).

 

As far as the gods go, I've seen and spoken to mine on several occassions, and while it seems perfectly natural at the time, I start to question my sanity. This is where remembering the power of the human mind is important. IF it is "all in the mind" it doesn't make much difference because we can make things manifest with the power of the mind. And at the end of the day, does it matter if you're talking to a 'genuine' god or an aspect of your own subconscious? If the results work well, then I don't think it matters.

 

As far as talking to them goes, I tend to talk to the air. At home I direct it towards my altar, but generally I just point it at empty space. Getting replies is a little trickier. What's the quote... "when I talk to god it's called prayer. When god talks to me it's schizoprenia". Replies tend to come as things that you interpret. I've noticed that I get to see the most beautiful sunsets when I'm really stressed and usually shouting at the gods. I take them as a message to shut up, breathe, and relax.

 

I still query whether I'm mad - it wouldn't surprise me these days - but I'm learning to trust my intuition. If your gut feeling tells you that a feather on your doorstep is a message from the gods, it probably is. And so long as you don't start interpreting messages as 'kill your friends' then we're ok :)

 

Hope that made sense

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bertha. I think Dave explained rather elequently. The human mind is capable of much more than Scientist know. Studies on Prayers have found that it works and to me, Prayer is a form of meditation. Christians ask there God for help but need to go through others but they firmly believe (or many of them anyway) that prayers help them, if for nothing else than to focus in on a problem. With Gods and Goddess, we are honoring the ancients, who I believe had a great deal more knowledge in this than we do. It's a lost art I think.

 

Disciplines like Yoga and meditation teach us how to get to our higher selves, to help make sense of the chaos that is reality. Some don't need to ask for guidance through the Gods and Goddesss, some just contact a 'spirit' guide. They are not real in the phyiscal sense but are in the psychic sense and many have found us when we least expect it. That is the wonders of the mind and it's just as real.

 

Workings do feel silly at first, because of all the nonsense out there so that's normal. With practice you should become more confident in yourself and learn to trust your instincts. An enlightment of sorts should come sometimes when you least expect it.

 

A few years ago, I was getting ready for bed, turned the t.v. off and for some reason a John Lennon song was going through my mind, "Love is all there is" was the line that circled my mind. All of a sudden I heard a male voice tell me "That's the way it always was". Needless to say, it scared the crap out of me. But after thinking about it-a lot- and tried to analyze it, just so I could understand. What I found interesting was that he said that's the way it always was, past tense, and understood.

I realized I wasn't going crazy and had spontaniously somehow contacted someone. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you all for your replies :lol: , judging from what's been said I guess it's time to stop looking for little blue men, swiggging from whiskey bottles and screaming, "Och aye the noo, here's the receipt for your spell and ye've won a free week in faerie land in our luckie drawe!" :o_cuddle:

 

Would I be right in using the analogy of "James Bond"-type spies? Which is just that pagans have trained themselves to see things that other people would miss, which would not necessarily be obvious to the casual viewer. It's not that these things are against reason, just that most people aren't looking for it. So that when the the supporting actor in the film says "Why on earth would Mr. X be the double agent?" It's a bit like the ordinary person saying "What on earth make you think you can talk to spirits?" The answer to both questions being, "If you'd been listening, you'd know..." :o_baeh:

 

I suppose I'm also going to have to spend a lot of time investigating psychology as well! :o_baeh:

 

And start listening...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suppose what I'm saying is that if you see something you can say, "I saw it with my own eyes, it's real." Can you say that you've seen a spell or a God with your own eyes or is it more like, "I'm sure, I know it in my heart." How can you be sure it's real?

Bertha - One of the best topics I have seen in a while. :o_cuddle:

 

First of all, don't feel a tit, It is just you, the land, magic and whatever else you got.

 

How do I know my Patron exists? Well, she talk to me in dreams, through bird signs and many other ways I am unwilling to type here. (Bird signs - If anyone is a student of Classical Mythology and Literature, you will know the Greeks are obsessed with birds ((yes that means she is from that Era)))

 

I know that most if not all my spells work because I have such self belief in myself, the land, and my patron. How do I know it works? well if I hex someone to break their arm and they do is that not a result? I guess I am just someone who believes that magic is everything, that once you put yourself in flow with these energies anything is possible.

Praying to me is diffrent - I rarely do it, but with libations to the land and my Patron and nearly daily talks with said Patron they understand.

 

I think I've proven that I know my Patron is real and that she helps me along, shoving and screaming whether I like it or not. Yes, she is my Mentor and friend, it is a teacher, student relationship. See above for how she talks to me.

 

See "broken arm" to show that my spells work....and no I dont believe Karma will come back to take a juicy lump from my bum

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The answer to both questions being, "If you'd been listening, you'd know..." :o_cuddle:

Heres a beautiful story for you (one i'll never forget).

 

A native american and his friend were walking down a New York street. There were cars all around, the beeping of horns, and lots of people. Suddenly, the native american said "i just heard a cricket". "your crazy" said his friend "how could you hear one with all this around you, I think your going mad".

"Really" said the Native American walking over toward a lone tree on the pavement and sure enough there was a cricket.

"wow!" said his friend "that is crazy, you must have super human hearing to hear his chirp through all this"

 

The Native American shook his head and took out a few coins from his pocket, he dropped them and everyone for 20ft looked to see if it was theirs.

 

"you see my friend" said the Native American "it just depends on what your looking out for"

 

 

This is in edited form, see if i can find the real yoke an I'll type it word for word.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

By the time I remember to come back and answer this sensibly, there's so much excellent advice that I really can't add to it. So I'll link to my old article, it's about my relationship with my Goddess and how I know that she is real, very real

Introducing my Goddess - Nantosuelta :o_bolt:

 

 

That's a good story Touchstone, too many fail to see what's going on around them, blind to anything else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, I suppose what I'm getting at is, if you do a spell, do you know at once if it'll work or not? And if so, how do you know? Or is it like a prayer, you send it off and hope for the best.

 

 

Well part of what makes a spell viable is that you believe in it working. If you have doubts it will at the very least be weakened and at worst either not work or misfire.

 

I don't do much in the way of magic myself, partly because I feel that most of the time I have no need and partly because unless I feel really sure about it then its hard to muster the belief to back it up.

 

But nevermind, magic is only a small part of paganism for the most part.

 

And with Gods, if you have a God, how can you be sure it's real? I've heard some people here talk about Gods in very familiar terms like they're a teacher or a mentor. With my teachers at school I went and knocked on their door if I had a question but obviously you can't do that with a God, so how do you speak to them? And if you do speak to them how can you be sure that they're real and not just a figment of your imagination?

 

Teacher or a mentor - very very good description of the gods (well most of them there are a few who are a little different) and as for knocking on their door - well thats what I do.

 

Of course its not so much a door in a wall but a door in your mind. For me seeing the gods is done not with my physical eyes but with the eyes of my mind. The clearest is within meditation/pathworking or dreams, but when awake they may appear either in some other physical form that you 'know' contains their spirit or in your mind's eye overlaid over your physical sight.

 

Are they a figment of my imagination - well there are some who would say the gods are just jungian concepts created out of your subconcious to enable your concious mind to explore other options. That might well be true, but as they feel real to me it would be rather rude to call them that to their faces. :o_bolt:

 

To be truthfull I feel the gods appear to you only when they feel you are ready or need them, and that they come to you in a way that you are most comfortable with. So what one experiences may or may not be the same as another, but both would be equally real.

 

Kev

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And with Gods, if you have a God, how can you be sure it's real? I've heard some people here talk about Gods in very familiar terms like they're a teacher or a mentor. With my teachers at school I went and knocked on their door if I had a question but obviously you can't do that with a God, so how do you speak to them? And if you do speak to them how can you be sure that they're real and not just a figment of your imagination?

And why not? Christians call it "prayer", Pagans "talking".

 

And like prayers, petitioning the gods for help, guidance, assistance etc. and getting an answer, takes time - all things unfold in their own time and their own way, and the answers you seek come to you in a variety of ways (dreams, tv/radio programmes, conversations with strangers/friends et al.) You just have to be aware and open to receiving the answers.

 

Likewise, your questions over your sanity and strength of the spells you cast - been there, done that, got the t-shirt to proove it. Like has been said before, once to have gathered all the required components of the spell and put your heart and soul into it, the spell is out there working it's magic - though the results aren't necessarily the ones you were expecting (see above).

 

Believing or knowing gods exist is a bit like believing/knowing that the universe exists, just because you haven't seen it for yourself, doesn't mean it's not there - and there are many, many things in the universe still yet unexplained/understood (and will probably remain so).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bertha!

 

This is a really interesting topic - it is always good to question other peoples beliefs so that you can feel that you are not on your own and hopefully identify with some of what people think. I for one, always enjoy hearing what individuals believe and why.

 

I really can't add much more than what others have said but I would like to say that I totally relate to your questioning and reasoning for as I constantly feel the same way! You are obviously here on this path for a reason and something has attracted you to it - if the attraction is strong enough you will persevere and discover your own way and the answers to all your questions through time! And hopefully enjoy the process!

 

Never worry about questioning things as to question is to gain knowledge!

 

X

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But nevermind, magic is only a small part of paganism for the most part.

 

40826[/snapback]

 

Personally, i feel its a central part, Howevr diffrent strokes for diffrent folks

 

(not being a patronising willy)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hehehehehe, oh I know where you're coming from Bertha, first few times I sat down to meditate or try to work a spell I felt a right plonker! And when a friend and I had a go at what were basically New years Resolutions but backed up with a bit of magic, we felt such pratts. At the time we had this belief we had to rythym everything, and I suck, so I was starting sentences and my friend, who is a whizz at that stuff was going to finish them, except I was ending with words like silver and orange ...lol I just felt too self conscious.

 

I've now found a formula I'm happy with, I much prefer working alone and it feels more intimate and personal. I don't really have specific Gods or Goddess I work with, I tend to go more generic, however I keep imagining this tall woman with long black hair, very pale skin wearing a very dark and swishy dress, no actually its more like a cloak. Don't know if it means anything or is just me imagining, but I'm looking into various pantheons to see if anything strikes a chord. Time will tell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But nevermind, magic is only a small part of paganism for the most part.

 

40826[/snapback]

 

Personally, i feel its a central part, Howevr diffrent strokes for diffrent folks

 

(not being a patronising willy)

41431[/snapback]

 

 

Well I guess that comes down to the way you define 'magic', 'paganism' 'faith' and your path

 

Kev

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Moonsmith
      I’ve posted a link (in links) to a BBC article in today’s news just to illustrate a bit of the colourful side of Paganism.  Perhaps it will do something to balance my prosaic take on the subject. i know little of Witchcraft but I enjoyed the article and like her approach.  
    • Ellinas
      👍 It's as good a position as any and better than quite a few.  
    • Stonehugger
      Yes, it was in Nettle's "Who are your deities?" thread. I said "I seem to have become an atheist. That was never my plan, but here I am." Veggiedancer later said it better than me - "I don’t exactly believe in deities as such. I think they come from  our minds. Archetypes, ways of identify or characterising the spirit/ magic/ life or whatever it is we sense around us. Ways our minds try to explain the unexplainable to us???"
    • Moonsmith
      I’m probably second guessing Nettle wrongly but it wasn’t all that long ago that you would have read posts about alters, magic, Shamanism, spells etc. I think it was either Teatimetreat or Drachenfach that had a hex on her handbag and her car.  When the car was stolen it crashed and the thief was caught. I agree and would very much like to see more of the colourful side of Paganism back here.  Quite right Ellinas.  I do not understand how anyone can claim to be Pantheist (or even pantheist) and atheist at the same time even though the most prominent Pantheists do exactly that.  As I’ve said elsewhere: why can’t they call themselves Panists.  The prefix “pan” means everything and everywhere as in “pandemic”.  The god’s name arose from the adjective so it wouldn’t necessarily mean a devotee of Pan. pee ess - it may be worth mentioning that there are a vast number of belief groups under the umbrella word Paganism.  Druids Witches, Polytheist and Shaman are only a small part of what the greater picture of Paganism depicts. Dunno and don’t care are probably the biggest groups.
    • Ellinas
      All the above, plus the impression of a preponderance of atheism is currently, as well as historically, inaccurate.  Certainly, I am no atheist.  I believe MS rejects the term as applicable to himself.  Stonehugger, I think, recently said he had headed in that direction, but I've not seen the other resident atheists for a while. However, our ideas of deity are not the same, necessarily.
×
×
  • Create New...