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Guest Shimmering Stardust

Reincarnation And Karma

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Guest Shimmering Stardust

Ok dokey. Here goes . . .

 

I know there are many pagans out there (myself included) that believe in reincarnation and karma. I personally believe that our souls, when they die, get reincarnated into another being. Plus I believe that what we do by our actions, and thoughts, come back to us (sort of like what comes around goes around and that's my definition of Karma.)

 

There are also people who are able to connect Karma with reincarnation and are able to say that Karma determines what we are reincarnated as.

 

As you know I am new to all of this and I want to learn as much as possible. And, so far from what I can gather, this kind of makes sense to me as I believe in Karma and reincarnation. But I was just wondering if someone might be able to elaborate a bit more on this and how it works (or even point me in the direction of a website) as I want to learn a bit more about it.

 

I am hoping that this message makes sense.

 

Thanks,

 

Shimmering Stardust

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Guest artywitch

Personally i think Karma is a load of rubbish, more with the experience that those who spout on about karma have never had anything really bad happen to them. or they are so thick skinned that they really dont care about anyone but themselves. (of course i am not aiming at you,) They also are those who seem to think they are fated to things. I still remember a very bad conversation with a playgan who spouted that it was the fate for a girl to be raped and beaten up and that it was just karma sent to her after what she did in another life.

Also again with reincarnation, also i think is a load of rubbish. I have enough problems with this life let alone thinking about the next life and the time before :) :D

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Guest Lillie

Yes.

 

I feel that the idea that our current lives are in some way dependant on previous lives is a way of abrogating personal responsibility for our lives and our actions.

 

It's a way of saying 'it's not my fault'.

 

Also the people who use it like the above illustration of the girl who was raped is rather horrible.

In this sense it becomes a way of apportioning blame to the victim. To me it reveals the same mind set as someone who says 'They asked for it because they were wearing a short skirt', but wrapping it up in a philosophical bow to hide the blatant misogyny.

 

So, whether reincarnation is real or not (and I wouldn't like to say) I usually find it's ideas used for two things, to say 'It's not my fault' and also to say 'It's their fault'.

 

It's pretty nasty and I think that firstly people should take responsibility for their own actions, and secondly that misogynists should be honest about their views on women and not try to make it palatable by dressing it up as new age philosophy.

Or their Karma will get them in their next life...

:blink:

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Guest Animystic

One of the problems as I see it is that karma is, as most often run across, a total new age misappropriation. Within the contexts of the spiritual and mystical traditions within which the concept has been refined and developed, it doesn't carry these same connotations of blame. Yes, the simple interpretations of lay folk even in those cultures might be "do good shit and come back in more fortunate circumstances" but as part of a philosophical doctrine I think that there is little most people would recognise as that which is touted as karma in the new age scene.

 

I too have been on the receiving end of idiot buddhist converts trying to explain that my wife's painful and dangerous miscarriages were a karmic consequence of the harm she caused a child in a past life. I regret treating the twat as generously as I did, which was not very, but my understanding of karma is that it is so much more than "do good, get good, do bad, get bad"... it is a mystical understanding of the (non-linear) relationships of cause and effect obtained through perceiving the processes from a specific set of altered states of perception acheived through meditation. So, anyone not having gained that type of perception (myself included) is unlikely to understand what is meant.

 

That said, my understanding of it would be far more akin to something like the metaphor of Indra's web

 

From a document that was sent to me of unknown origin

Indra's web illustrates a number of ideas about interconnectivity as an integral part of existence and the universe. The idea of the web itself comes in a number of slight variations. But it goes mostly as follows: the web or net is infinite and spans in multiple dimensions—it is not flat like a normal spider's web. On each vertex of the web there is a jewel or a drop of dew— these, by virtue of the web being such as it is, are infinite. The drops of dew or jewels reflect and refract light mirroring each other infinitely. Each drop of dew reflects the light from all other drops of dew, and likewise, each drop of dew is reflected by all other drops of dew. Everything on Indra's web is in complete interconnection.

 

As in the concept of the web, everything in our world is interconnected in the same manner. Every single facet of our existence reflects and interacts with every other facet in an endless cascade of connections. There is nothing in the universe that is not connected to everything else. And certainly everything on earth is connected in such a fashion whether we perceive it or not. This goes beyond the idea that people are the only points of interconnection in a global state of being. Instead of just people being the nodes for connections, everything in existence is a point of transmission for a connection between all other objects.

 

Similarly, it is not the mere connection that exists between all things that is important, but also the fact that all things must be connected in order to exist. In the example of the web, it is impossible to block a drop of dew from interacting with all other drops of dew. There is no way a single drop can avoid other drops. In this sense, all other drops are responsible for giving any one particular drop its existence. Each drop's existence depends on all other drops, and all other drops' existences depend on any particular individual drop. The drops cannot originate on their own—they all need each other in order to define their own existence.

Edited by Animystic

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Guest shadow_wolf

. I still remember a very bad conversation with a playgan who spouted that it was the fate for a girl to be raped and beaten up and that it was just karma sent to her after what she did in another life.

Also again with reincarnation, also i think is a load of rubbish. I have enough problems with this life let alone thinking about the next life and the time before :) :)

376508[/snapback]

 

 

ok what that person said is very worng as no one no matter what they did in any previous life deserves that! (weather you believe it or not) so there talking crap! but would you not want the girls attacker to get whats coming to them? i know i would!

 

example: a girl i know was murdered by her husband because she left him for another man he stabbed her then stabbed himself hoping that he would die as well so he wouldnt have to face the police and justace as well as their two children! but he lived as the police got to him in time and took him to hospital where he survived and is now facing the justace system i believe that fate or karma kept him alive so he wouldnt have a choice but to face life for what he did

 

like it or not thats my view on it :D

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Xalle

I'm sorry but to me Karma is just nonsense.

 

We always seem to attribute it when something bad happens.

 

Someone's Karma to be raped. Jesus :P What about the rapist? What exactly happened to him Karma wise in the last life to make him come back as a complete bastard?

 

Karma to keep the man alive... right so.. his wife who he murdered... she deserved to die? Where was Karma when it came to her surviving and getting to see him locked up for what he did?

 

If you are going to use an argument for something, you HAVE to look at the flipside of that. Like the fireman who was interviewed after he survived the 9/11 attacks (he was in tower 1 when it fell, the second tower to fall). Someone said to him that God must have been watching over him. His response to that... "and what? He wasn't looking after everyone else?"

 

No sorry... your "he survived to face justice" fails. Epically.

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Guest shadow_wolf

Karma to keep the man alive... right so.. his wife who he murdered... she deserved to die? Where was Karma when it came to her surviving and getting to see him locked up for what he did?

 

ok ok what i said didnt come out right no she didnt deserve to die if any of them should have lived it should have been her what i was trying to get across was the fact that our actions are our own and these people saying "that happened because of a past life" is a load of crap what i meant was that he should have lived to serve the sentance for her murder but i do believe that if you do good that it will repay you somhow

 

example: i was walking to work one day and there was a little bird walking along the street it was very young and must have fallen out of a nest everyone on the street was walking past it some even kicking the little thing i went into my work and got a cardboard box and trapped it and brought it down to the vets she took the little bird in and looked after it and realised it into her garden a few weeks later i had fallen on hard times with money and i had no money for cigerettes ( i smoked at the time) and i found a five pound note call it what you want but i think i was repayed for that good deed and its happened to me alot its not just this once but i believe in it

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Xalle
example: i was walking to work one day and there was a little bird walking along the street it was very young and must have fallen out of a nest everyone on the street was walking past it some even kicking the little thing i went into my work and got a cardboard box and trapped it and brought it down to the vets she took the little bird in and looked after it and realised it into her garden a few weeks later i had fallen on hard times with money and i had no money for cigerettes ( i smoked at the time) and i found a five pound note call it what you want but i think i was repayed for that good deed and its happened to me alot its not just this once but i believe in it

377187[/snapback]

 

I think you were lucky. Who is to say the fiver you found wasn't dropped by someone who desperately needed it? Look I know it may seem like I am picking on you I'm honestly not. I'm trying to explain that we.. humans.. have a tendancy to atribute "somthing" to nothing and we tend not to look at the other side of the coin because it doesn't impact on us.

 

"I did something good therefore something good happened to me" just doesn't wash on a day to day basis. You must be see that? You only have to turn on the news or look in the history books to see that isn't right.

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Guest shadow_wolf

i know your not picking on me am just saying what i beleive in some call it luck others call it somthing else i get what your saying really i do but just because you personally or other people dont believe in it doesnt mean that there are people who do believe in it thats the good thing about life not everyone agrees with everything so it can make for interesting talks :D :P

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Xalle
i know your not picking on me am just saying what i beleive in some call it luck others call it somthing else i get what your saying really i do but just because you personally or other people dont believe in it doesnt mean that there are people who do believe in it thats the good thing about life not everyone agrees with everything so it can make for interesting talks :D  :P

377245[/snapback]

 

I personally like to make sure there is some balance to what I believe. I don't belive in things because I want to, or because it makes me feel better, if I am to take something on like Karma it needs to make sense. It doesn't. I'm gonna be harsh and say it's not ok for people to say "well no.. it doesn't make sense and I can't explain why it works for this but not for that, but it makes me feel good so that makes it ok."

 

Perhaps you were broke in the first place because Karma thought you had been bad. Not.

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Guest Animystic
i know your not picking on me am just saying what i beleive in some call it luck others call it somthing else i get what your saying really i do but just because you personally or other people dont believe in it doesnt mean that there are people who do believe in it thats the good thing about life not everyone agrees with everything so it can make for interesting talks :D  :D

377245[/snapback]

 

I personally like to make sure there is some balance to what I believe. I don't belive in things because I want to, or because it makes me feel better, if I am to take something on like Karma it needs to make sense. It doesn't. I'm gonna be harsh and say it's not ok for people to say "well no.. it doesn't make sense and I can't explain why it works for this but not for that, but it makes me feel good so that makes it ok."

 

Perhaps you were broke in the first place because Karma thought you had been bad. Not.

377249[/snapback]

I'm going to side with Xalle here. believing something is so is not a reflection of the way the universe works. It trundles along quite nicely, independent of (but including) our beliefs. It is important to be try and be pretty rigorous where possible about beliefs such as this. test them. test them frequently. OK, I have some fairly far out beliefs by other people's standards as I'm sure Xalle might agree, but to me they qualify as intuitions about the way the universe works... many of them are suspicions rather than beliefs, and the others are kind of like "meta" beliefs... I believe them because the rest of my belief and experience make more sense to me as a consequence. The universe is under no obligation to treat those beliefs as true, and if I notice that it doesn't, I'm a happier bunny if I accommodate the universe rather than assume it should be the other way round :P

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Guest artywitch

Believe it or not the person in question even said it was the fate of the girl to be raped and it was the the fate of the rapist to rape her.

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Guest Hedgewitch

I am facinated by this subject. I do lean toward thinking that karma is just a 'get out' for wrong doings. A bit lke a person asking a priest why a tradegy happened in their life and the priest saying it was Gods will.

 

As for reincarnatin, I lean more towards believing in it. There are many forms of belief on this subject. Some say that on death, the soul goes straight into a newborn. Another says that you can come back as a totally different species, like in the asian relegion. The snake represents a bad person who is destined to crawl on their belly in their new life.

 

A reletive of mine believed that each time you returned to this life, it was to learn, better yourself until eventually your spirit could attain the highest level and didn't have to return.

 

Whether you belive or not, there have been many references of people that can recognise places and names from a time before. Sme, obviously, just want publicity and a quick way to make money but there are some that have so much information on a past place or life (before we could google) that it makes you think.

 

If a belief gives you comfort then believe it.

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Guest Lantern_Light

Animystic, i really like the Indras web concept. By any chance do you know where i could get a copy of the rest please?

 

As for reincarnation and karma...

 

I do believe in reincarnation and i think we are here on earth to learn different life lessons until we reach a level of enlightenment. I think each life we choose allows us to learn different skills and a new level of understanding and spiritual consciousness. The best books i've found on the subject are Journey of souls and Destiny of souls by Michael Newton. I think i posted the links on another thread. To be honest i found these books through a friend who is seeking answers and turned up with them one day. I already remember much of my own past lives but these explained to him far more than i could and in a clearer way.

 

As for karma i don't know what i think about that as such but i do believe in balance. The balance that eventually we need to learn all the lessons of life whilst we are here in whatever order they come to us so that eventually we reach a well rounded whole being. When something bad or frightening happens to us i don't feel we "deserve" it at all. For me now it is more a case of asking myself two questions, "what am i meant to learn from this, even if it's something bad what knowledge can i gain from it and how is the best way i can deal with what has happened?"

 

I am not sure that this is the same thing as karma which is so often used as a thing of blame or repercussion. Anything that works by control through fear i.e. "be nice or something nasty will happen to you later" doesn't seem all that enlightened (IMHO). Instead i think of it as reaching an understanding that no matter what happens in life if we respond with love and integrity to the given situation we honour ourselves.

 

Sometimes as in the case of the poor girl who was raped i don't know, i hope that she is able to heal heart, mind, body and soul and that she is able in time to move forward and still love life despite such a terrible thing having happened to her.

 

BBs LL

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Moonsmith
I personally like to make sure there is some balance to what I believe. I don't belive in things because I want to, or because it makes me feel better, if I am to take something on like Karma it needs to make sense. It doesn't. I'm gonna be harsh and say it's not ok for people to say "well no.. it doesn't make sense and I can't explain why it works for this but not for that, but it makes me feel good so that makes it ok."

 

377249[/snapback]

 

 

Abso - ruddy - lootly. :D

 

My belief system can change as human understanding of the universe unfolds.

 

If something is ineffable I'll leave it alone until I can eff it! For me that has to apply to reincarnation and kama.

 

That's why I'm a Pagan and not a Christian.

 

edited to add - I am very happy to say " I dunno" where evidence lacks in either or any direction as indeed in the example of post life experience.

Edited by Moonsmith

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Guest Animystic
Animystic, i really like the Indras web concept. By any chance do you know where i could get a copy of the rest please?

 

Attached :) I believe it came from a course on Buddhist philosophy, but I cannot vouch for its provenance in any way

Indrasweb.doc

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Guest Lantern_Light
Animystic, i really like the Indras web concept. By any chance do you know where i could get a copy of the rest please?

 

Attached :) I believe it came from a course on Buddhist philosophy, but I cannot vouch for its provenance in any way

383617[/snapback]

 

Thank you very much for that :) Am going to do some reading.

BBs LL

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Guest ejbuddha

That is it exactly, read Theravada Buddhist thought on Karma and re-incarnation. Mahayana is going down the Dalai Lama route...Any monk that wears a rolex and gets chauffeured round in a limo is suspect!!

 

Dharmanet has a massive free library on this sort of thing :)

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Guest James2612

Hi All....

 

This is my first post with you, so be gentle.. lol :huh:

 

I do believe in Karma... But Karma is more complicated than "Do Good, Get Good - Do Bad, Get Bad" Karma is about life choices and lessons.

We get an issue thrown in front of us that we need to deal with. If we do deal with it and learn from it then the Karma is paid.... If we don't deal with it, then karma will come back around and make us face the issue again.

 

For example:

 

A guy is being bullied at work by his boss.. Makes his life hell, so he leaves his job and moves on.... He gets a new job and it all seems to be going well. Then before he knows it his manager is blaming a big mistake that cost the company thousands on him even tho he is innocent. So he leaves the job and struggles to find a new job.

 

Now this same guy gets a new job, its not a great job but its all he can get, he works there for a year and then he is faced with another issue.... He needs a new monitor for his computer to do his work. His manager tells him to pay for it on the company credit card, its the way that department has always done it. A few weeks later his manager is fired, and one by one every on the team gets fired or moved to another department. He gets suspended for using a company credit card for a computer monitor that is against company policy. They make his life hell, drag him in to HR meetings and treats him terribly. But this time he does some thing differently... He takes them on. He gets a lawyer involved and takes them to court for the way they have treated him. He wins a great big settlement and walks away happy. Before long he finds his perfect job with great money and great people and never comes along this problem again.

 

That is Karma... He has learnt his Karmic lesson and moves on.

 

The situation maybe different every time, but it will hold the same lesson, and from experience every time you run away from the problem it comes back worse.

 

So its NOT like, if i steal from some one i will in turn be stolen from. It is closely linked to the laws of attraction also.. You allow yourself to be trod on, and you will attract people who want to tread on you.

 

I hope i have explained this well enough and your not scratching your head wondering what i am on about. lol

Edited by James2612

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Guest blodeuwedd

I believe a karma.

Was abused my boyfriend for years,towards the end of our turbulent relationship he fell in work,damaged his right hand,severing the tendons. Same hand he used to twat me with.

Now THATS karma :huh:

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fizzyclare1

glad you got rid of him hun.

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Guest Magical FairyDust

Sorry to get into this a bit late but I had always wondered about the subject of Karma and how it worked. I thought the idea of "What goes around, comes around" was a bit basic. I like the way James, a couple of posts above, describes it.

 

Magical FairyDust

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Guest artywitch
Hi All....

 

The situation maybe different every time, but it will hold the same lesson, and from experience every time you run away from the problem it comes back worse. 

 

So its NOT like, if i steal from some one i will in turn be stolen from. It is closely linked to the laws of attraction also.. You allow yourself to be trod on, and you will attract people who want to tread on you. 

 

 

 

yeah but some people dont have a choice but to be trodden on. its a bit like saying some people allow themselves to be raped or beaten, no one choses to be a victum.

some times you cant just walk away from these things.

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Guest muddymick

"If you want to know your past life, look into your present condition; if you want to know your future life, look at your present actions" Guru Rinpoche.

 

 

karma in the Buddhist context (well within the Vajrayana) is cause and effect simply as complex as that. The pseudo mystical ruminations that where misappropriated later by born again western Buddhists and new ager pixie dusters has nothing to do with Buddhism!

 

 

MM :)

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Guest Magical FairyDust

Hi again,

 

I've been reading this topic and I noticed there are a few people who don't believe in karma.

But I was just wondering, for those who believe in reincarnation, but not in karma, in your own opinion what determines how we are reincarnated?

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

I believe everyone is entitled to their own belief and opinion and I was just curious as to what the opinions of others are.

 

Magical Fairydust

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Moonhunter
But I was just wondering, for those who believe in reincarnation, but not in karma, in your own opinion what determines how we are reincarnated?

402577[/snapback]

 

I believe we do. Ourselves. it is the decision of the individual.

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Guest morgane

Shimmering Stardust,

Reincarnation is a principle endossed my many religions around the world and principally Hindouist sects. The idea is not get out of the vicious circle...it is not an ideal...rather a means of improvement...trying to reply to the question ArtyWitch never mind what i believe perso.

So the "ralised" or "achieved" being in India gets out of the cycle...he or she may return on earth to help others...like a rescue team...th e Buddhists too seek enlightment so as to get beyong the earthly stage...and the best return to lead others into the light...

krishnaïtes of old believed that Krsna got them out of the cycle of reincarnations throught Bakti that is through pruifying one's actions through doing them and offering them to the Divine Sri Krsna.

my mother who is a trad witch prefers to return always...she likes it down here...yet

First Christians it has been said used to believe in Reincarnation they alos used astrology (there is historical proof of this)...but they get out of reincarnations through believing in a saviour from the reincarnation cycle.

So all that ideamisation of Reincarnation amonst modern pagans is overdone...unless you prefer like my mom casting nsty spells, feasting, and dancing for all eternity under this moon...

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Guest artywitch
...trying to reply to the question ArtyWitch never mind what i believe perso.

...

402924[/snapback]

 

wha?

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Guest muddymick

"So the "ralised" or "achieved" being in India gets out of the cycle...he or she may return on earth to help others...like a rescue team...th e Buddhists too seek enlightment so as to get beyong the earthly stage...and the best return to lead others into the light..."

 

Earthly stage?

 

Sorry morgane you seem to have a strange idea of Buddhism.

 

 

MM

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