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Guest Shimmering Stardust

Reincarnation And Karma

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Guest Animystic
and Animystic 'badly misunderstood Vedic philosophical concept?' what?

404807[/snapback]

:rolleyes: :blink:

 

Sorry

 

What I meant was that the "Karma" we tend to talk about isn't "Karma" at all... it is a pile of new age shit used by new age authors and the like to sell books and courses.

 

"Karma" has all the lovely mystical, magical, Eastern promise sound that these con-artists like, and they've sold us in the west a watered down, almost Christianised "as ye sow, so shall ye reap" version.

 

Karma isn't about asking the rape victim what they can learn for this... that is just manipulative crap

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Guest artywitch
... that is just manipulative crap

404836[/snapback]

 

But thats my favorite kind

:rolleyes:

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Guest muddymick
.i am alos in contact with teh Dalai Lama through his personal biographer who is also his friend...she happens to be a woman...whom i meet when the time is right...and i send a message on...

403548[/snapback]

That's really interesting how did you come to know his Holiness?

Was it through Sofia?

 

MM

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Guest Denille

As is obvious from my paucity of posts, I`m a "newbie" here.

 

I had little time to trawl through all of the threads or get an idea of how other members` Pagan beliefs are formed or refined.

 

I will probably upset a few long standing members here by what i`m about to say, but, frankly I`m a little shocked.

 

I have come to expect derision and disdain from the more dogmatic and steadfast religions regarding the diversity of beliefs in others, but I didn`t expect to find a thread amongst spiritual and peaceable Pagans virtually mocking those of us who have a heartfelt belief in Karma and reincarnation.

 

To cite examples ascribing excuses to something as despicable as rape, as reason to dismiss all concepts of Karma and reincarnation is about as fatuous as blaming Jews for killing Jesus or Muslims for excusing terrorism.

 

Karma isn`t about deferring responsibility. It isn`t a mechanism for abrogating responsibility for actions... and linking it to the heartfelt belief of reincarnation by hundreds of millions of decent minded human beings is, well, disingenuous.

 

As pagans, many of you will no doubt have suffered similar distortions of perception of your belief system, being labelled as evil worshippers and satanic deviants.

You arent.

The people who think so are suffering from their own feelings of polar opposites of superiorty and insecurity over what they either dont understand or dont believe in.

 

I would love to rest easy here and learn more in a comfortable environment. But if the basis of MY belief system is to be the subject of derision or ridicule, then perhaps I chose the wrong collective?

 

I genuinely hope not.

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Guest SchroedingersCat

Oh dear.....you do understand that this forum engages in robust debate, don't you? Or has someone nicked the warning sign off the front door again?

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Pomona
As is obvious from my paucity of posts, I`m a "newbie" here.

 

I had little time to trawl through all of the threads or get an idea of how other members` Pagan beliefs are formed or refined.

 

I will probably upset a few long standing members here by what i`m about to say, but, frankly I`m a little shocked.

 

I have come to expect derision and disdain from the more dogmatic and steadfast religions regarding the diversity of beliefs in others, but I didn`t expect to find a thread amongst spiritual and peaceable Pagans virtually mocking those of us who have a heartfelt belief in Karma and reincarnation.

 

To cite examples ascribing excuses to something as despicable as rape, as reason to dismiss all concepts of Karma and reincarnation is about as fatuous as blaming Jews for killing Jesus or Muslims for excusing terrorism.

 

Karma isn`t about deferring responsibility. It isn`t a mechanism for abrogating responsibility for actions... and linking it to the heartfelt belief of reincarnation by hundreds of millions of decent minded human beings is, well, disingenuous.

 

As pagans, many of you will no doubt have suffered similar distortions of perception of your belief system, being labelled as evil worshippers and satanic deviants.

You arent.

The people who think so are suffering from their own feelings of polar opposites of superiorty and insecurity over what they either dont understand or dont believe in.

 

I would love to rest easy here and learn more in a comfortable environment. But if the basis of MY belief system is to be the subject of derision or ridicule, then perhaps I chose the wrong collective?

 

I genuinely hope not.

420420[/snapback]

 

Denille, do you mind my asking how much experience of pagan fora you have?

 

It's my experience that Pagans have many, many varied viewpoints and approaches to Paganism, and most having really thought about them over many years, and have spent many years researching different religions and beliefs, and so are prepared to go toe to toe to (a) defend their right to hold and express their beliefs and (b ) argue WHY they hold some beliefs and not others.

 

The joy and the beauty of having people with experience and experiences like that here is that different viewpoints are expressed and people learn a lot more than they would on some forums where debate is discouraged and people feel obliged to agree with each other all the time.

 

And - on the other side of the coin, there's plenty that people here DO agree on and discuss from very similar stances: the thread you started about Catholic funerals being a case in point.

 

I personally *like* having my viewpoints challenged and reading debates - it expands my mind and informs me.

 

Don't be quick to write off this place - I promise you it's more valuable than lots of other places where Greek choruses are the order of the day.

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Guest Alistair
spiritual and peaceable Pagans

 

Shit, we have to be 'peaceable' now? What does that even mean?

 

As pagans, many of you will no doubt have suffered similar distortions of perception of your belief system, being labelled as evil worshippers and satanic deviants.

 

No. This is another myth, I'm afraid. No one really does that anymore. Most people pretty much don't care, and if you make them care by waving it in their faces, they're probably right to mock you.

 

You arent.

 

I suspect most here would probably tick one out of three of those boxes.

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Guest artywitch
To cite examples ascribing excuses to something as despicable as rape, as reason to dismiss all concepts of Karma and reincarnation is about as fatuous as blaming  Jews for killing Jesus or Muslims for excusing terrorism

 

 

I didnt, i just gave an example of someone who in their mind thinks a rape victum is fated to be raped. It is their karma to be raped. I didnt point a finger at a religious group nor incite people to grab their pitch forks and torches and go out and poke karma believers with pointy sticks.

 

in fact i find it a little off that you yourself have now come to a conclusion about non karma believers as horrible people, in the same way you are having a go at us for not being karma believers. it must be the karma.

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Guest Animystic

I think the examples given were examples of people who adopt a distorted and culturally unanchored view of karma as a new age accessory... I for one would never decry belief in a concept as deeply rich and complex as karma...

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Guest Denille
To cite examples ascribing excuses to something as despicable as rape, as reason to dismiss all concepts of Karma and reincarnation is about as fatuous as blaming  Jews for killing Jesus or Muslims for excusing terrorism

 

 

I didnt, i just gave an example of someone who in their mind thinks a rape victum is fated to be raped. It is their karma to be raped. I didnt point a finger at a religious group nor incite people to grab their pitch forks and torches and go out and poke karma believers with pointy sticks.

 

in fact i find it a little off that you yourself have now come to a conclusion about non karma believers as horrible people, in the same way you are having a go at us for not being karma believers. it must be the karma.

420435[/snapback]

 

Apparently, "robust debate" is encouraged here, so despite my freshfaced newness, I`ll partake if I may?

 

I believe your original post on this matter said :

 

"Personally i think Karma is a load of rubbish, more with the experience that those who spout on about karma have never had anything really bad happen to them."

 

No pointy sticks there, you`re right. Just pointed words that seems to leave little room for compromise or understanding. if the only people you`ve ever spoken to regarding karma are those who`ve never had anything really bad happen to them then perhaps a closer inspection of some of the oppressive regimes in power in the countries where Karma is a central belief system may disavow you of this line of thinking?

 

You then said :

 

"Also again with reincarnation, also i think is a load of rubbish. I have enough problems with this life let alone thinking about the next life and the time before"

 

Coping with the life we`re living is certainly a trial for most people..I agree, but if mankind had not spent thousands of years looking backwards, and many hours looking forwards, there would be no history to learn from, nor evolution to work towards.? Reincarnation as a belief system is rarely about copping out, and far more about opting in. Being aware of how your actions impact your current life and those you meet (in it`s sincerest form) is very much grounded in the very present you profess to only have time for. After all, a true believer in reincarnation is more interested in righting previous wrongs this time round so that the next incarnation has a more fruitful and satisfying turn on the wheel.

 

Of course, I have no intentions of trying to change your views of both my central cores of belief from "rubbish" to something less... polarised. I was merely surprised at your phraseology and narrow viewpoint.

 

For the record, I didn`t say at any point that skeptics like yourself are "Horrible people" And I am not having a go at you for thinking it is bunkum. I repeat, i was just surprised at the tone of your stated disbeliefs and felt it quite challenging.

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Guest Denille
spiritual and peaceable Pagans

 

Shit, we have to be 'peaceable' now? What does that even mean?

 

As pagans, many of you will no doubt have suffered similar distortions of perception of your belief system, being labelled as evil worshippers and satanic deviants.

 

No. This is another myth, I'm afraid. No one really does that anymore. Most people pretty much don't care, and if you make them care by waving it in their faces, they're probably right to mock you.

 

You arent.

 

I suspect most here would probably tick one out of three of those boxes.

420430[/snapback]

 

1. peace·a·ble/ˈpēsəbəl/Adjective

1. Inclined to avoid argument or violent conflict

 

Not sure if your question about peaceable was genuine or meant to be humerously sarcastic (A lack of a smiley means I took it as a genuine question) :lol:

 

2, I didn`t realise Pagansim had become so mainstream and accepted in society, so on that one I`ll have to admit my ignorance. I know that even in the circles I tend to mix with who are mostly enlightened and well read people, they tend to lean towards the whole "Satanic, pentagrams in blood" Hollywood imagery of wiccans or pagans. I do what I can to debunk this of course, based on the little I do know. But if people like yourself who know far more than I do on the subject tell me that this isnt the norm, then , yep, I got that one wrong. :angry:

 

3. Well hey, I`m only a newbie ..both to the Forum and the Belief system..so one out of three wasn`t bad ..and I do promise to try harder...hehe!

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Guest Denille
Oh dear.....you do understand that this forum engages in robust debate, don't you?  Or has someone nicked the warning sign off the front door again?

420421[/snapback]

 

Good!

Glad to hear it :lol:

 

Robust debate I can definitely deal with.

It`s narrow minded or close minded dismissiveness I tend to shy away from.

 

When I joined I stated quite clearly I`m here to learn... but by my very nature, I`m not the type to sit and nod meekly if I see or hear something I disagree with. If doing so provokes further explanation and correcting my misconceptions, then hey..isnt that "Robust debate?"

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Guest Alistair
Inclined to avoid argument

 

Ah. No.

 

"Satanic, pentagrams in blood" Hollywood imagery of wiccans or pagans.

 

I genuinely can't think of anything made in the last few decades that this can apply to, and few from before that. The only things I can think of in which the word 'Wicca', or terms from Wicca, are used are The Craft, Charmed, Buffy and The X-Files and these were almost all positive or neutral uses.

 

The only cliche that seems to reoccur is the 'dancing naked' thing. Which is sort of partly true.

 

Even when sMellanie Failips talked a load of shite about paganism in teh Daily Fail recently, she didn't have much of a go at teh satanic angle or anythign like that, which frankly would have been more acurate that what she did actually write.

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Guest Alistair
A lack of a smiley means I took it as a genuine question

 

I never use smileys. They irritate me and I'd turn them off if I could.

 

Actually... can I? Get rid of the stupid animated ones, that is? MOD! MOD! OI! Oh, hang on.. there's another thread for that, brb.

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Guest Denille
As is obvious from my paucity of posts, I`m a "newbie" here.

 

I had little time to trawl through all of the threads or get an idea of how other members` Pagan beliefs are formed or refined.

 

I will probably upset a few long standing members here by what i`m about to say, but, frankly I`m a little shocked.

 

I have come to expect derision and disdain from the more dogmatic and steadfast religions regarding the diversity of beliefs in others, but I didn`t expect to find a thread amongst spiritual and peaceable Pagans virtually mocking those of us who have a heartfelt belief in Karma and reincarnation.

 

To cite examples ascribing excuses to something as despicable as rape, as reason to dismiss all concepts of Karma and reincarnation is about as fatuous as blaming Jews for killing Jesus or Muslims for excusing terrorism.

 

Karma isn`t about deferring responsibility. It isn`t a mechanism for abrogating responsibility for actions... and linking it to the heartfelt belief of reincarnation by hundreds of millions of decent minded human beings is, well, disingenuous.

 

As pagans, many of you will no doubt have suffered similar distortions of perception of your belief system, being labelled as evil worshippers and satanic deviants.

You arent.

The people who think so are suffering from their own feelings of polar opposites of superiorty and insecurity over what they either dont understand or dont believe in.

 

I would love to rest easy here and learn more in a comfortable environment. But if the basis of MY belief system is to be the subject of derision or ridicule, then perhaps I chose the wrong collective?

 

I genuinely hope not.

420420[/snapback]

 

Denille, do you mind my asking how much experience of pagan fora you have?

 

It's my experience that Pagans have many, many varied viewpoints and approaches to Paganism, and most having really thought about them over many years, and have spent many years researching different religions and beliefs, and so are prepared to go toe to toe to (a) defend their right to hold and express their beliefs and (b ) argue WHY they hold some beliefs and not others.

 

The joy and the beauty of having people with experience and experiences like that here is that different viewpoints are expressed and people learn a lot more than they would on some forums where debate is discouraged and people feel obliged to agree with each other all the time.

 

And - on the other side of the coin, there's plenty that people here DO agree on and discuss from very similar stances: the thread you started about Catholic funerals being a case in point.

 

I personally *like* having my viewpoints challenged and reading debates - it expands my mind and informs me.

 

Don't be quick to write off this place - I promise you it's more valuable than lots of other places where Greek choruses are the order of the day.

420423[/snapback]

 

I don`t mind you asking me anything at all, on any subject Pomona.

I may not always give you an answer...lol.. but you can ask anything at all! :P

 

My experience of Pagan fora is...let me check... about 8 posts so far!

My experience of other forms of debate and discussion, be it online or offline in real life, is, umm..how can I put this?

I guess you could say it is...extensive.

 

Going "toe to toe" on points of discussion or disagreement doesn`t hold any fear for me, and despite what you may now be thinking as a result of my interjection in this particular thread, i`m not a shy and retiring wallflower who throws up his hands in horror.

My questioning of myself as to whether I made the right choice in asking to join here was not because i wish to part of a gang of limp wristed yes-men.... that couldn`t be further from the truth.

My doubts were because my two central core beliefs were part of a thread that contained some pretty scathing (and, I felt, totally unwarranted) descriptions or dismissals. I brought it up and commented because I wished to hear more. If I were the type who shied away from such an approach, I would simply have said nothing and slipped away never to be seen again.

 

We have in common the "like" of challenging debate, but I must qualify my "like" by adding the word "reasoned" before "debate".

I have little time for any debate that has one side stating an extreme opinion without explanation... why would anyone? There is nothing to be learned from fixed monologue, but LOADS to be learned from informed dialogue ;)

 

Oh..and these "Greek Choruses" you speak of?

Would that be the "Nana Miskouri & Demis Roussos Appreciation Society" Fora by any chance? I used to be a member there...but they threw me out because I wasn`t singing from the same song sheet ;)

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Guest Denille
A lack of a smiley means I took it as a genuine question

 

I never use smileys. They irritate me and I'd turn them off if I could.

 

Actually... can I? Get rid of the stupid animated ones, that is? MOD! MOD! OI! Oh, hang on.. there's another thread for that, brb.

420512[/snapback]

 

Looks like for us "ne`er the twain shall meet" will be the order of the day then.

I think emoticons are immensely valuable in avoiding misunderstanding.

As the bleak written word cant carry a twinkle in the eye or a wry smirk, nor the nuance and tone of the spoken phrase, then anything that can illuminate intent is of value in my opinion.

Otherwise, some people can come across as grumpy, overbearing, patronising or abrupt ;)

Not that I mean you, of course, Alistair ;)

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Guest Alistair

My personal opinion is that smileys just make anything and everything they're used in conjunction with look juvenile and inconsequential.

 

When I want to be juvenile and inconsequential I certainly don't need any help from silly pictures.

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Guest SchroedingersCat
My personal opinion is that smileys just make anything and everything they're used in conjunction with look juvenile and inconsequential.

 

When I want to be juvenile and inconsequential I certainly don't need any help from silly pictures.

420528[/snapback]

 

That is so true.

 

Denille - I think Artywitch was reacting to 'Karma' very much as the stupid New Age concept of 'what goes around comes around', which many of us here have heard so often we could throw up. Rupert Murdoch is in himself proof that such a concept is completely void. THAT is rubbish, quite simply, and on that I am in wholehearted agreement with her - something you will find happens rarely. However the genuine Hindu and Buddhist belief in Karma and reincarnation is another kettle of fish altogether and I think most people here are happy to agree is a perfectly valid belief system. Personally I have more time for Buddhism than I do any other 'organised' religion.

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Guest artywitch
Denille - I think Artywitch was reacting to 'Karma' very much as the stupid New Age concept of 'what goes around comes around', which many of us here have heard so often we could throw up.

 

Yeap you are right. and until maybe now all the discussuions i have had on the matter are from new agey type hemp wearing vegan tree huggers. Hense the assuming it was happening again. But i stand my my idea of karma being a load of crap, i also dont believe in just one god nor aliens creating crop circles.

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Guest Denille

until maybe now all the discussuions i have had on the matter are from new agey type hemp wearing vegan tree huggers. Hense the assuming it was happening again.

 

But i stand my my idea of karma being a load of crap, i also dont believe in just one god nor aliens creating crop circles.

420735[/snapback]

 

Hugged a tree once for a laugh.

Never worn hemp in my life .... though I think I smoked it once or twice about 20 years ago.

My desperate desire for 16oz ribeye steaks done rare and still mooing bar me from the Vegans.

 

I also dont believe in one god and I thought crop circles were a hilarious hoax on the knobheads who so readily lapped it up.

 

But I do believe in Karma earnestly.

However, I wouldnt dream of ramming it down anyone`s throat, so I`ll bow out of this thread deferring to your seniority here.

I`ve said my piece and still believe that calling someone`s beliefs "crap" and "rubbish" is rather harsh, but not enough to go to war over...lol

 

*bows courteously...exits stage , left* :lol:

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Marcus
But I do believe in Karma earnestly.

 

In which case - why do you?

 

Marcus

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Pomona

 

 

But I do believe in Karma earnestly.

However, I wouldnt dream of ramming it down anyone`s throat, so I`ll bow out of this thread deferring to your seniority here.

I`ve said my piece and still believe that calling someone`s beliefs "crap" and "rubbish" is rather harsh, but not enough to go to war over...lol

 

*bows courteously...exits stage , left*  :lol:

420779[/snapback]

 

 

What - really?! Nooooo! Seniority counts for hee-haw here: Arty (and I'm sure she won't mind me saying this) is one member expressing her view as does/should everyone else. Why would you saying why you DO believe in Karma be ramming your view down anyone else's throat? It's a discussion board, and I've already said that discussion about opposing viewpoints is what expands the mind, so PLEASE don't feel you have to defer to someone else's viewpoint just because they've been here longer!

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Guest Animystic
But I do believe in Karma earnestly.

420779[/snapback]

As do I... though not in a form that most new age-lite would recognise... and I see nothing in AW's posts to cause me not to wish to discuss the matter further...

 

Thing is Denille, you preface a lot of your posts with "new here"... back in the day of bulletin boards and newsgroups the advice to new members was always "lurk for a while" to get a feel for posting styles... now that never sat well with me... I'm incapable of keeping my mouth shot for long enough to lurk... but the point about posting styles is well made... everyone here has a different way of putting things and spending a little time in learning how the members contribute can reap benefits in reduced misunderstanding later... for example, AW is not shy of calling a spade a fucking shovel (I'm sure, well hoping , she won't mind me saying so :lol: )... she's already explained, quite explicitly, that her only contact with what people referred to as karma was of a particular type and is happy to discover that other people have other beliefs.

 

Frankly, the people who hold the sort of beliefs that she describes as being her initial exposure to karma I tend to find nasty, controlling, manipulative people, but there are enough of them out there. I will call them on their beliefs because they espouse them as a means of controlling and hurting others... like the man, a so called Buddhist, who told my wife (unbidden and unasked I might add, and in a particularly judgemental fashion) that her miscarriage was because of the harm she had done to children in a past life. Can you not see how exposure to people like that give any of the metaphysical concepts a bad rep?

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Guest Denille
But I do believe in Karma earnestly.

420779[/snapback]

 

Thing is Denille, you preface a lot of your posts with "new here"... back in the day of bulletin boards and newsgroups the advice to new members was always "lurk for a while" to get a feel for posting styles... now that never sat well with me... I'm incapable of keeping my mouth shot for long enough to lurk... but the point about posting styles is well made... everyone here has a different way of putting things and spending a little time in learning how the members contribute can reap benefits in reduced misunderstanding later... for example, AW is not shy of calling a spade a fucking shovel (I'm sure, well hoping , she won't mind me saying so :lol: )... she's already explained, quite explicitly, that her only contact with what people referred to as karma was of a particular type and is happy to discover that other people have other beliefs.

 

 

420859[/snapback]

 

Ok, at least now I know.

 

However, I can`t help but fail to reconcile this statement with the expressed encouragement for robust debate.

Either it`s encouraged, or it isn`t.

As for posting styles, yes, we each have our own, and some use monosyllabic grunts, whilst others prefer to to use far more words than are usual by others who make their point more succinctly. I have no problem with people calling a spade a fucking shovel, as a shovel doesn`t (as far as I`m aware) have an innate sense of wellbeing and joy attached to a core belief system.

 

If it is ok to make a statement, then be questioned on it, then plead ignorance yet continue to reaffirm that statement , and then have it defended as simply "Your way" because people know youre like that .. well.. I apologise for taking exception to it. perhaps all Jews really are tightfisted and all Muslims are terrorists after all.

 

But thank you for taking time to point out quite clearly what I`d begun to suspect anyways, and thankyou for at least letting me takie a look around to get the feel of the place.

 

Don`t worry about the door "slapping my fuckin` arse" on the way out... I kicked it off its hinges in my haste.

 

To those who arent bigoted or ignorant, I apologise for my brief inflammatory visit here. May your gods bless and look over you favourably.

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Pomona

:lol:

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Xalle

If it is ok to make a statement, then be questioned on it, then plead ignorance yet continue to reaffirm that statement , and then have it defended as simply "Your way" because people know youre like that .. well.. I apologise for taking exception to it. perhaps all Jews really are tightfisted and all Muslims are terrorists after all.

 

420959[/snapback]

 

Actually you are quite right it isn't ok and taking exception is exactly what I would have done too. It isn't ok for someone to deride something but know actually nothing about it.

 

However rather than walk out in a strop, stand. Point out the wilful ignorances. Get stuck into the debate, show them where they are wrong. You do have to appreciate whether you like it or not, Karma, like Shamanism and soooooooo many other practices have been bastardised beyond recognition. You ask 100 people what Karma is, I'd be surprised if even one understood the actual concept as opposed to the new age crap everyone is fed. You can't educate folks if you aren't here and then, I suppose in my eyes, that makes you as guilty of them when it comes to perpetuating the stupidity.

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Fortuna

That said, if you are quite so thin skinned as to label people bigotted and ignorant for the relatively mild posts in this thread then perhaps the place is not for you. Its a shame when people appear to be calm and respectful, but then storm out of the site calling people names. Its your call.

 

Mike

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Guest Animystic

edit: original deleted... ah never mind

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Guest SchroedingersCat

Good grief. That was something of an over-reaction to Animystic's post, wasn' it? Especially since I read it as being quite conciliatory and trying to explain how people operate here.

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I seem to have some fluff stuck in my throat, need to go have a cough (and a beer).

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Guest artywitch
Don`t worry about the door "slapping my fuckin` arse" on the way out... I kicked it off its hinges in my haste.

 

To those who arent bigoted or ignorant, I apologise for my brief inflammatory visit here. May your gods bless and look over you favourably.

420959[/snapback]

 

 

I hope the outburst hasnt come to mind just because of my views and how i choice to put them across.

Also i never understand how someone can be rude and then give blessings. It always seems to lack honesty.

Feel free to tell me to piss off, but dont wish me good luck after it.

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