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Mysticism


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Yes the Punjab Government put their own man in after they slowly poisioned and eventually killed Akali Baba Santa Singh...afterwards the new 'leader' posed for newpaper photographs pouring away the Shaheedi Degh (Bhang drink) from the massive cauldrons they use.

 

The Nihang Singhs have a great mystical tradition and I would happy to talk about it (via messages). Im definately a Nihang Singh but Im not a fan of modern day Sikhism. Ive spent the last decade learning from whoever I can, while remaining a Nihang Singh. That can be hard when somebody passes you a peace pipe...but Ive managed!

 

 

BTW Muddymick you mentioned Nihangs.....I have spent a lot of time with this order since 1997.......and got intiated in 1999. :D

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To be honest I meant to put Udasi, but couldn't remember the name :D

I spent some time with the Nihangs while I was at Anandpur Sahib a few years ago although I was interested I didn't really have enough time to get into real discussions regarding the more mystical aspects of Sikhism I do remember quite a furore when their leader refused to condemn the use of bhang so he was replaced...... :)

 

Interesting....whats your perspective are you Sikh? baptised? Punjabi?

Sorry for being nosey I am intrigued.

 

 

MM

:)

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I wonder if MH meant..... that within the parameters of those that constitute the church (as a majority) who hold a consensual theology (if you will) Mystics are always heretics :) . :)

 

That's a fair enough representation. I found generally that mysticism equally irritated everyone - the orthopraxic and the orthodox, as it tended not to stay inside either box. :)

 

 

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To come back to the OP... I think your definition is interesting... I'm not going to get into a "what is Mysticism" discussion... I learned my lesson in the what is paganism debate :o_rofl: (thanks, Marcus ;) )... but in order to flesh out an answer to the OP I would be interested to hear peoples thoughts on what is the primary defining characteristic of mysticism... is it

.: a practice (eg. "contemplation and self-surrender")

.: a goal (eg. "to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute")

.: an experience (in the sense that one might be a natural mystic)

or what?

 

Hmm..interesting. I sort of got hijacked. I never set out to be a mystic. I got mugged one weekend when I didn't want to be on retreat, and I accidentally ended up trying to help Lionel Blue without knowing who he was. But that's a whol;e other story. :blink:

 

I guess I fell into an experience. I tried to make that into a goal, but more frequently as a pagan it is either a practice or else an attempt to communicate with wights. The latter does not really seem to me to easily fit into any of your categories, Adam.

 

Really deep trance, for me, is completely seductive. I never understand why some pagans talk blithely about 'grounding' and 'eating in order to ground afterwards' or about tasting salt or driniking water. To me - and some other pagans I know - there is little desire to return at all, let alone the find a methos to hasten return. I once essentially spent most of 6 weeks in and out of trance, fitting it round work and communting. That experience I found a lot like being in love. But my usual metaphore is being "behind the waterfall" - seeing but not hearing unless one tunes in, and only touching the other world by putting a limb out through the curtain of what can seem like water. Or not, according to your experience. Perhaps Stargate got that right. :P

 

Could you illuminate me with regards to the mystic trad of Druidry....?

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this was addressed to Adam, and I can't help as I'm not technically a druid, but I follow a god who is, in some fashion, the land and its animals, and he kicks me up the butt (so to speak) if I stop taking notice of birds, trees and other assorted things to do with what goes on in the world outside humankind.

 

and he is most usually represented (for reasons that seem to me to make perfect sense) in the orans position, cross legged. other features, though more frequently regarded by most pagans, are less universal in representation. ;)

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Moonhunter,

When you posted of mystics shared affinity it reminded me of this quote..."All mystics speak the same language, for they come from the same country"

Author: Louis Claude de St. Martin

 

 

MM

:)

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Hmm..interesting. I sort of got hijacked. I never set out to be a mystic. I got mugged one weekend when I didn't want to be on retreat, and I accidentally ended up trying to help Lionel Blue without knowing who he was. But that's a whol;e other story.  :lol:

 

I guess I fell into an experience. I tried to make that into a goal, but more frequently as a pagan it is either a practice or else an attempt to communicate with wights. The latter does not really seem to me to easily fit into any of your categories, Adam.

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No... and it certainly wasn't meant to be exhaustive (I *really* did learn something in the pagan definition thread :P )... it seems more like an inclination, which makes sense to me :)

 

Really deep trance, for me, is completely seductive.

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:)

 

Could you illuminate me with regards to the mystic trad of Druidry....?

407393[/snapback]

 

this was addressed to Adam, and I can't help as I'm not technically a druid, but I follow a god who is, in some fashion, the land and its animals, and he kicks me up the butt (so to speak) if I stop taking notice of birds, trees and other assorted things to do with what goes on in the world outside humankind.

 

and he is most usually represented (for reasons that seem to me to make perfect sense) in the orans position, cross legged. other features, though more frequently regarded by most pagans, are less universal in representation. ;)

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thats a good description that leads into the implicit nature mysticism of many druidic strands... I'll try and dig up some more

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Hi MM & Animystic

yes it is like the quest of the HOly Graal - even Perceval is not pure enough - yet the hand is just an image it is analogy or metaphore for his inner self being transformed...He gets taken to another worldly place He is submitted to an ascension - the text says he is actually lifted upwards - to first a palace - oh yes and it is like a near death experience for he sees a derelict land - yet there lays there experience of his ancestors symbolised by the monoliths (dolmens and menhirs) - and the Palace is similar to those fo Alchemy - unbelievable - this means to say that mankind has always had those experience - renewed for each generation with new divinities every time - as buddha in th eOrient - (that for u my brother MM)- and then what happens - he does not understand - an experience one cannot relate with words - unfathomable ineffable - beyond words -he is being healing within psyche - the hand lets remember is just a metaphore which helps to convey the unspeakable - he is healed by star light very bright many stars - his inner self transform - transmutation - born again - YES BROTHERS not JUST the Xtians are BORN AGAIN all polytheists or pagans or humans can look forward to TRANSMUTATION - this is the aim of any ritual, the goal of any quest - look up on the net the GOLDEN DAWN ORDER i am not a member because they pratice with egyptian divinities and it is not my thing however they too sear for the ENLIGHTMENT the same enlightment that the CELTS and Druides experience all these centuries ago! isn't that just beautiful! BLessed Be! and my the Force and the Light be with you! So Mote it Be!

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Morgane, I'm sorry, I found that post utterly impossible to decipher.

 

Is it too much to ask you to use some kind of sentence structure so that we can attempt to follow what you're thinking? That just looks like a string of words put down on the page and it's unfair on the reader to have to work out what you are trying to say

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OK Morgane... I get the approach interpreting the tale of Nuadha of the Silver Hand as allegory... similarly the Grail Quests... though I would argue that the ability for the Grail Quests to be read as such is a result of a Romantic and post Christian redaction of earlier stories that carried no such allegorical overtones.

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Moonhunter,

When you posted of mystics shared affinity it reminded me of this quote..."All mystics speak the same language, for they come from the same country"

Author: Louis Claude de St. Martin

 

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yes. Exactly that. :D

 

 

YES BROTHERS not JUST the Xtians are BORN AGAIN all polytheists or pagans or humans can look forward to TRANSMUTATION - this is the aim of any ritual, the goal of any quest -

 

Well, I don't think it is. The rituals I do have the aim of accomplishing a piece of work. When I go "behind the waterfall" that is something completely different. It is sometimes ecstacy but more often communication - either active or passive. I am either transmitting or receiving. It may happen that I do both. If I do, it is wordless and the rpactice of a total exposure of being. It is to offer the raw psyche and to attempt to interpret what comes in return - if anything.

 

Often communication also passes, and there is only rest in a place without colour, form or sense. This can be shallow or deep; it can last a short time or a long time. "Time" has no correlation to depth.

 

The problem with quests is that most people don't tend to understand that their normal form is having to do stuff that is tremndously unwelcome and very painful. And the door is open only briefly. One steps through it into the fire or one doesn't. Is there ever a second chance to make that move? I don't know. I got burned.

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407244[/snapback]

<snip> one defining characteristic (for me) of contemporary western paganism is that it attempts to reconnect with a sense of the indigenous, and indigenous traditions often do not seem to create a distinction between mystical and non-mystical approaches, providing for both mediation with the supra-mundane and direct experience of it within the same tradition... I see elements of the latter in contemporary western paganism... say Druidry...

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<snip>

Could you illuminate me with regards to the mystic trad of Druidry....?

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OK... not so much a tradition but I find elements... though it may be a question of "What the thinker thinks, the prover proves" :P It is my own natural inclination to adopt a mystical perspective so it is easy for me to pick up on elements of any tradition that support that perspective

 

I was introduced by a Druid friend to a (well to the first part of a) practice she called the Dercad Duthracht or devotion of meditation... she describes the goal(?) of the meditation as becoming A-Soul-In-Love-With-All-Creation... it certainly contains elements of submission, dissolving identity. I do not know its provenance... I found one reference to it on the internet which no longer seems to be present and my firend is no longer part of the BDO forum so I haven't persued it... it may well have some Christian influence, it may be entirely contemporary...

 

In general, contemporary Druidry seems to contain on at least one level or another the premise that the numinous is manifest in the natural world... (I would like to make it clear that I do not consider myself a Druid for a number of reasons, but I do find "druidic" often a fair fitting description of my "path") and we can through meditational practices and similar alter the boundaries of identity in relation to the natural world (practices such as "shapeshifting" which in some strands of Druidry seem to have a more psychological focus, and meditations aimed at engaging identity with the transpersonal through the natural world)... I would regard this as being a progressive step to a mystical mode of experiencing... nature mysticism as described by Rudolf Otto as "the sense of being immersed in the oneness of nature, so that man feels all the individuality, all the peculiarities of natural things in himself. He dances with the motes of dust and radiates with the sun; he rises with the dawn, surges with the wave, is fragrant with the rose, rapt with the nightingale: he knows and is all being, all strength, all joy, all desire, all pain in all things inseparably."

 

A core element of contemporary Druidry, Awen or poetic inspiration, also has elements that, at times, seem to me to reach out toward a mystical model

 

The Awen I sing,

From the deep I bring it,

A river while it flows,

I know its extent;

I know when it disappears;

I know when it fills;

I know when it overflows;

I know when it shrinks;

I know what base

There is beneath the sea.

from The Hostile Confederacy, from the Book of Taliesin VII early 14th century

 

In Druidry the awen, the flowing spirit of inspiration and creativity, is considered to be within and around us at all times, available to be connected with or to channel... I personally consider this to be a consequence of a state of congruence between the personal identity (sub-system) and transpersonal. Awen is something flows. Again, I take this for a metaphor for an impermanent but perseverant condition that creates a particular and dynamic relationship between the subsystem of self and the "ultimate reality"

 

I'm rambling... I just deleted a poem by Rumi and another from the Book of taliesin :D My thinking on this is not well formed... I see it and I see a potential for the development of a mature contemporary pagan mystical tradition... but it doesn't exist yet IMO other than in hints and small surges... and much of it may draw on early anglo-Christianity... which is cool...

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Aniùystic

ok so all celtic writings are just empty...all ritaul are void of relgious content...and all praticing sorcerers or whatever have no spiritual aim...and it is all pointless and i am just wasting good sleeping time...So good night...or just empty night and days!

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ok so all celtic writings are just empty..

408655[/snapback]

 

I wasn't aware that what historians refer to as "Celtic peoples" actually wrote anything at all. I always thought they were oral / pictorial groups of people (who never called themselves Celts either). I could be wrong though.

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Aniùystic

ok so all celtic writings are just empty...all ritaul are void of relgious content...and all praticing sorcerers or whatever have no spiritual aim...and it is all pointless and i am just wasting good sleeping time...So good night...or just empty night and days!

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??

 

You have a remarkable knack for turning a specific comment into a generalisation which wasn't present... it kind of renders discussion with you worse that worthless...

 

I never *said* any of that (disregarding, for the time being SSs point about writing)...I never *meant* any of that... do you *ever* actually make *any* effort to read any of what is said before you comment

 

I went to considerable effort to try and disentangle your earlier reply before responding and all I am saying is that, historically, it is highly unlikely that the original, early forms of these tales had such an allegorical interpretability, and that the allegory was applied at later stages by those familiar with Christian mysticism (*not* that the allegory *is* Christian mysticism) and Greek mythology... the allegorical references are likely Classical rather than pagan in origin... it maybe that the allegorical layers originated in medieval times as the redactors attempted to reconnected with *their* pagan past just as many of us are doing today, but they are, in and of themselves, not pre-Christian or in that sense inherently pagan...

 

Aiee... why am I bothering? :)

Edited by Animystic
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407244[/snapback]

<snip> one defining characteristic (for me) of contemporary western paganism is that it attempts to reconnect with a sense of the indigenous, and indigenous traditions often do not seem to create a distinction between mystical and non-mystical approaches, providing for both mediation with the supra-mundane and direct experience of it within the same tradition... I see elements of the latter in contemporary western paganism... say Druidry...

407390[/snapback]

<snip>

Could you illuminate me with regards to the mystic trad of Druidry....?

407393[/snapback]

OK... not so much a tradition but I find elements... though it may be a question of "What the thinker thinks, the prover proves" :) It is my own natural inclination to adopt a mystical perspective so it is easy for me to pick up on elements of any tradition that support that perspective

 

I was introduced by a Druid friend to a (well to the first part of a) practice she called the Dercad Duthracht or devotion of meditation... she describes the goal(?) of the meditation as becoming A-Soul-In-Love-With-All-Creation... it certainly contains elements of submission, dissolving identity. I do not know its provenance... I found one reference to it on the internet which no longer seems to be present and my firend is no longer part of the BDO forum so I haven't persued it... it may well have some Christian influence, it may be entirely contemporary...

 

In general, contemporary Druidry seems to contain on at least one level or another the premise that the numinous is manifest in the natural world... (I would like to make it clear that I do not consider myself a Druid for a number of reasons, but I do find "druidic" often a fair fitting description of my "path") and we can through meditational practices and similar alter the boundaries of identity in relation to the natural world (practices such as "shapeshifting" which in some strands of Druidry seem to have a more psychological focus, and meditations aimed at engaging identity with the transpersonal through the natural world)... I would regard this as being a progressive step to a mystical mode of experiencing... nature mysticism as described by Rudolf Otto as "the sense of being immersed in the oneness of nature, so that man feels all the individuality, all the peculiarities of natural things in himself. He dances with the motes of dust and radiates with the sun; he rises with the dawn, surges with the wave, is fragrant with the rose, rapt with the nightingale: he knows and is all being, all strength, all joy, all desire, all pain in all things inseparably."

 

A core element of contemporary Druidry, Awen or poetic inspiration, also has elements that, at times, seem to me to reach out toward a mystical model

 

The Awen I sing,

From the deep I bring it,

A river while it flows,

I know its extent;

I know when it disappears;

I know when it fills;

I know when it overflows;

I know when it shrinks;

I know what base

There is beneath the sea.

from The Hostile Confederacy, from the Book of Taliesin VII early 14th century

 

In Druidry the awen, the flowing spirit of inspiration and creativity, is considered to be within and around us at all times, available to be connected with or to channel... I personally consider this to be a consequence of a state of congruence between the personal identity (sub-system) and transpersonal. Awen is something flows. Again, I take this for a metaphor for an impermanent but perseverant condition that creates a particular and dynamic relationship between the subsystem of self and the "ultimate reality"

 

I'm rambling... I just deleted a poem by Rumi and another from the Book of taliesin :lol: My thinking on this is not well formed... I see it and I see a potential for the development of a mature contemporary pagan mystical tradition... but it doesn't exist yet IMO other than in hints and small surges... and much of it may draw on early anglo-Christianity... which is cool...

408549[/snapback]

I see where your coming from Animystic!

I think we have a problem with modern religions and modern interpretations of such in that they are somewhat 'sketchy' with regards to the more mystical aspects. That is a two fold problem one is a lack of explicit (tried and tested) methods to elicit certain shifts in consciousness, two is that if these shifts are encountered they do not have the methods to integrate these experiences fully.

This often leaves people who adhere/practise these religions without a map to these unknown lands and if they do stumble upon them they have no guide to see them safely home. Obviously this is a generalisation and I hope I have offended no one.

 

 

MM

Edited by muddymick
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I see where your coming from Animystic!

I think we have a problem with modern religions and modern interpretations of such in that they are somewhat 'sketchy' with regards to the more mystical aspects. That is a two fold problem one is a lack of explicit (tried and tested) methods to elicit certain shifts in consciousness, two is that if these shifts are encountered they do not have the methods to integrate these experiences fully.

409046[/snapback]

That was pretty much what I was trying to say... it is worth bearing in mind that many of the major influences on contemporary Druidry were themselves very heavily influenced by the hippy ethos of the 60s and 70s and there are many influences from that era's obsession with Eastern philosophies present in Druidry, though there does seem to be an increasing momentum to tease out the provenance of current praxis

This often leaves people who adhere/practise these religions without a map to these unknown lands and if they do stumble upon them they have no guide to see them safely home. Obviously this is a generalisation and I hope I have offended no one.

409046[/snapback]

It doesn't offend me... but I also think that in some ways there are advantages to the vagueness of the maps. The problem comes when the traveller encounters real difficulties or psychological traps and there is no real authoritative understanding of the nature of the problems encountered without appeal to external traditions...

 

I think there is a place for a contemporary mysticism rooted in contemporary thinking and culture... an extension of the thinking developed by Groff and his colleagues for example and maybe the work continued by John Heron (allowing for the individuality that lies at the core of contemporary paganism while providing a framework)... that maps out this terrain in a way that is congruent with cultural thought about the nature of the mundane world...

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I see where your coming from Animystic!

I think we have a problem with modern religions and modern interpretations of such in that they are somewhat 'sketchy' with regards to the more mystical aspects. That is a two fold problem one is a lack of explicit (tried and tested) methods to elicit certain shifts in consciousness, two is that if these shifts are encountered they do not have the methods to integrate these experiences fully.

409046[/snapback]

That was pretty much what I was trying to say... it is worth bearing in mind that many of the major influences on contemporary Druidry were themselves very heavily influenced by the hippy ethos of the 60s and 70s and there are many influences from that era's obsession with Eastern philosophies present in Druidry, though there does seem to be an increasing momentum to tease out the provenance of current praxis

This often leaves people who adhere/practise these religions without a map to these unknown lands and if they do stumble upon them they have no guide to see them safely home. Obviously this is a generalisation and I hope I have offended no one.

409046[/snapback]

It doesn't offend me... but I also think that in some ways there are advantages to the vagueness of the maps. The problem comes when the traveller encounters real difficulties or psychological traps and there is no real authoritative understanding of the nature of the problems encountered without appeal to external traditions...

 

I think there is a place for a contemporary mysticism rooted in contemporary thinking and culture... an extension of the thinking developed by Groff and his colleagues for example and maybe the work continued by John Heron (allowing for the individuality that lies at the core of contemporary paganism while providing a framework)... that maps out this terrain in a way that is congruent with cultural thought about the nature of the mundane world...

409054[/snapback]

 

I absolutely concur!

Just because there is a distinct lack of guides and guiding methods does not mean there are non........Groff and others offer a framework that is more than adequate to the tasks in Hand for many practitioners/adherents of modern faiths.

I also agree that one of the main problems encountered by people who have trans-personal experiences is the inability (no framework) by which they can integrate the experience. Many have a experience that challenges their world view on a fundamental level, if they are able to integrate this experience they actually become healthier human beings (psychologically or spiritually if you will) However we have probably all seen the individuals who have had the experience without the intergration (that threatens the ego) and their ego employs even more subtle and outlandish tangles to ensure it's control......messiah complexes.....special powers.....blood lines....cosmic plots and conspiracies....leading to more rampant egoic paradigms.

 

 

MM

 

MM

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  • 8 months later...

How many angels can you get on the head of a pin

 

sorry, you've lost me. Are you making a point about angels, or about something else?

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