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What I Believe - A little help, if you will?


Guest Dødsskyggens
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Okay, so as most of you who know me should already know (re-read that, it's confusing, I know) I am a relative newbie. If you don't know me, you know I'm a newbie now!

 

I ran this idea past Pomona earlier who is a great help, as is everyone here (you'll make me poor buying drinks if ever I meet you, you swine! all of you) and she approved it. Basically I am going to ask you for your help (don't groan and roll your eyes, it's not going to be strenuous!) to 'de-clutter' and update my beliefs and/or belief system. This is the fun part: you get to do so by challenging my beliefs, asking why i believe in it, maybe even contradicting it with your own beliefs if you like (please, religious / spiritual beliefs, not scientific, then it gets dull for dumbvolk like me) but please keep the tone polite. This is generally just to, as I say, ensure that I DO believe what I believe in and am not just caught up with things.

 

To 'upgrade' my beliefs is basically to find anything you may post that would fit nicely in to one of the places I feel is empty or under-developed. It could be anything you believe, that faeries rule an alternate universe? Sure, why not? That Santa Klaus is actually part of an international elvish conspiracy to take over North Korea? Whatever. I don't mind.

 

So, where to begin? I am Norwegian (hei) and have studied the Christian dogma I was raised with, found nothing. Eventually I met my first ever Pagan, my girlfriend of the time. She was a Wicca, as is her sister who is still Wicca where my ex has "lost faith in all things". As for me, Egypt didn't really have much of a pull, but at the word "Norse" and the combined addition of "Paganism" my ears pricked up, comically, maybe.

 

I have always felt a strong connection to my ancestors - even as a Christian I felt more that they were helping me and guiding me than those of the Angels or God, Yeshua, etc. and so, I often asked them for help and advice in interpretting the Bible. I also felt a strong connection to the trees, Winter and the moon. Maybe I had a vivid imagination, or perhaps it was just an undeveloped mind picking up on all teh pwetty tings awound it. Either way, I ended up here, where I am now.

My Ancestors came truly into my life when I heard of Norse Paganism, then I felt a new sensation: a prickling in the ends of my fingers, a soaring of the heart and a warmth and strength. Like I could take on the world and win. I dreamt of many weird things in those first few days, I decided to research on it a little more but I didn't know I was lacking in time: my friend, the sister of the two Pagan sisters, relapsed into Anorexia and I followed, to show my loyalty and friendship and that I would die if she did. Foolish, maybe, but friends and loyalty mean a lot to me.

 

I had done a little groundwork from books on Wicca my girlfriend of the time had given me, but most were long and, ultimately, difficult reads. Not that I did not understand them, just that I could not 'feel' them, as it were. I understood the words and concepts but they seemed somewhat alien to me, not for me.

 

I did, however, stumble across a few little things that were right for me, things I could put my beliefs in. Herbs, for example were used for thousands of years and I see no reason why they won't work just as well now as they did then, if I can take herbs over pills (I tend to gag when swallowing pills) and my life is not threatened by my condition (if it is, I won't 'mess around' trying to find the right things and so on) then I don't see why I shouldn't. Likewise for Runes, although I am skeptical of Tarot (yep, funny, isn't it? :P ) - anything a God would give an eye for must be pretty significant somehow (and yes, I DO happen to believe in those tales as somewhat literal*) and that's why I believe they have power. Never really looked too deeply into Tarot but it does make me feel... unsettled. So I avoid it.

 

I believe in Magick, as a little Christian I was petrified of it, as a slightly bigger Christian, fearful of it and wore a pendant from a friend to protect me from it. Then I realised "HEI! WAIT A SECOND!" magical defence is magical (Feel free to say 'Duh!' there, I deserve it!). Eventually I came to believe in it as a double edged sword, whilst I do not believe in a Karma system that makes bad things happen to bad people, I do believe the 'other side' of Magic is an extremely risky pursuit - like making explosives near a candle light. Sure, if you get the desired result, it will be good (for you, not the other poor *******) but you still are playing a dangerous game even holding it near to the flame. May as well forget about it and club them over the head, the good ol' fashioned way.

 

As I mentioned, I have a strong connection with trees, also. Not that I am a hippy tree hugger kind of person, quite the opposite and such people who think I am get a free Jujitsu lesson (:ph34r: ) but I do talk with trees and I won't pretend I am ashamed of it either. I sit in them and listen, I talk directly to them and recently, something I learned from a certain person on the board (I won't mention who without their permission, but suffice to say you know who you are and I am greatful!) I can actually hold a conversation... with a tree. Feel free to be skeptical, I would have been too had I not actually swallowed my pride and tried it. This, and other things I may, or may not have seen as a child (over-active imagination, or, perhaps careless things) has made me believe in Land Spirits. I believe they are real, I believe they can be visible and I believe that the animals and plants live on in their area until eventually they pass on (so the world is not full of ancient spirits). I have always known trees to be ancient, even before I was aware of the fact that most truly are, ever met someone you think "I could learn from them"? That's how I have felt around many trees.

 

Recently (ever so recently!) I have been learning to read the Runes from a dear friend also from this board (same thing as before, you know who you are :o_cuddle:) and I believe the results, the interpretation of the results, to be accurate. I believe that they are a gift from Oðinn and hold a great deal of power for those who can read them. Why do I believe this? Because I believe in the Norse Pantheon, the Myths, the Legends, the Gods. I believe in it all because I find it somewhat unfathomable for things to "just happen" ironically and find most other explanations to be quite baffling. Don't get me wrong, I'm not some kinda Norse-Creationist who thinks that a giant was killed by a God and everything sprang from it, but an Ice Giant? Could that be a meteor or something that smashed into Earth? Possibly. So I give life to the creation story through science, I don't quite know how else to explain it, but it FEELS right.

 

To sum up, I believe in:

 

  • The Gods and Goddesses of the Norse Pantheon and their individual abilities and powers over things. I believe they are too busy to meddle directly with the lives of everyone who is involved in the world, but some truly exceptional individuals may catch their attention, have their blessing or be their chosen to act in certain ways. I believe them holding up the Universe is a pretty decent thing to do, so I believe it is right to regard them, thank them and respect them.
  • I believe in Ancestors as direct links to the past, holders of knowledge and guides for us in our current lives. I believe that they can help us if we are open to them. I do not believe we are re-incarnated, at least, not straight away. I believe that, instead, apart from those who are selected for WalhÜll (Walhalla) we first go to Hel (yes, the Goddess Hel) and live to serve those who precede us and the Goddess herself until it's decided we should be reincarnated. Everyone would hate for overcrowding, methinks!
  • I believe in Landspirits that are alive in all things natural, as well as guardian landspirits who roam the forests and mountains, Fjords and lakes, etc. protecting, nurturing and keeping our world in the best order they can. I believe you can work with them, if you can find and contact them. I believe they are the spirits of dead things: animals, trees, plants that gain a greater role before finally passing on and, they themselves are re-incarnated in time.
  • I believe in the Runes, as they are earned for us by Divine sacrifice (Guder that sounds so up-myself) to use as we will. They are a gift from Oðinn and as such, they require certain specific traits or blessings (if you like) to handle and use correctly. I also believe that they can be a tool to find out about your past, present or future if there is need of it, as well as an alphabet system and symbols for the imbue-ing? Imbuement? Of magical qualities in an item or a person.
  • I believe in Wyrd, Fate, Destiny. I believe it is written from before birth and that your death is pre-defined. I have lived through a great many things that could have, and some things that blinkin'-well should have killed me and I'm still here... I think! I believe that all the choices we make leads us down a different string as it is woven but the length of each string woven into the rope is pre-defined. No path will stop our deaths before the time is right. I also believe that people we meet may be weaved into our lifestring, so that you are forever woven to one another.
  • I believe in the magical and medicinal qualities of herbs and, for some reason, crystals; I believe that they can heal and detox, cleanse and purify, clarify and induce (visions, sensations etc.) depending on their usage. Of course, some of this is scientifically proven whereas other bits are not, but I believe in it because herbs have been used for thousands of years effectively and some medicines are refined plant materials. I believe crystals work because they are parts of the Earth, some crystals absorb electricity and I believe all crystals absorb magic. This is why they work (imo).
  • I believe in Magic (or Magick, if you're fussy) because such a thing is found in all cultures at some point, if not most of their cultural history. Furthermore I believe there is a valid scientific explanation for magic, such as the effective containment and concentrated release of an unknown energy into the cosmos to affect certain things to the will of a person. I just believe it is hard to find out "how".
  • I believe in the importance of symbollism and tools as ways to focus and control oneself. Psychologically symbols can induce a great change in a person, for example showing a Hammer and Sickle banner to a die hard Communist may inspire them. I believe symbols are more than simply psychological, but also magical as they absorb our beliefs, our magic into them and become empowering. Perhaps the "Nazi Occult" thing may ring true, or be a load of bull, either way it is a fantastic example of what I am talking about, and nowhere near as vague as the Spear of Longinus or True Cross.
  • I also believe in certain qualities that I should have: loyalty, respect, honour, integrity, honesty etc. I believe that a code, a moral system is important for any person to live by because it gives them a sense of superiority when the temptation to do wrong is there. "I am better than that, I shall not do it". I also believe it empowers the things we do with a more positive energy, that is to say: greed feeds itself and the greedy always want more. Those who live by a code tend to have their needs and find peace and happiness when said needs are fulfilled.
  • I believe in the 'One-ness' of the Universe. Despite their being Gods who rule over it, they form a community which unites them (unless they're fighting... again) and empowers them. In turn all things in the universe are united, conncected to one another. Each and every action has a consequence, like ripples of water on a pond (how clichÊ!) that travel outwards. Some, so far we cannot even see them!
  • I believe in the importance of family and community as central pillars for everyone and everything. As I mentioned in the above post, the actions of one affect us all and, as such, to act as community with care and respect in our hearts for one another makes things better. I believe that to care for everyone in the UK is beyond a person, let alone the world, so community is important and family within that. This, I would say, is my community - the only place I fit in (at the moment) and therefore it is SACRED to me. As would be my family were they not wanting me dead. lol

Most importantly, though? I believe in the sanctity of all things. All paths, all religions (yes, even Christians, as much as I hate to say it!) are as valid as the other and can all lead to peace and the eventual finding of 'Truth', whatever truth may be. I do believe that NO-ONE on Earth has the Truth, I believe that, perhaps, once the cycle of life and death has been completed, once one has enough experience in life, one might finally be awarded truth and pass on elsewhere... If they're not serving in WalhÜll. Rather much like Gradings in Martial arts - each life brings you closer until you can learn no more.

 

There is probably a WHOLE BUNCH of things I have not found out yet, a whole bunch of things I've missed and a whole bunch of things I cannot yet understand with my young mind. What matters though, is that (I hope) many of you will post, add to this, challenge it and I will be able to alter my beliefs to what TRULY fits me accordingly.

 

I thank you for your time and thank you in advance for your replies.

 

Nik

 

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You sound like somebody taking their first steps as a heathen to be honest. There's plenty there which I disagree with - and it's likely you will in time. That's okay - none of us is the finished article and everything should be considered the "best working hypothesis at the time". Heck at your age, you're probably not even the person you will end up being (your brain hasn't even finished fully growing yet :) )

 

Marcus

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You sound like somebody taking their first steps as a heathen to be honest. There's plenty there which I disagree with - and it's likely you will in time. That's okay - none of us is the finished article and everything should be considered the "best working hypothesis at the time". Heck at your age, you're probably not even the person you will end up being (your brain hasn't even finished fully growing yet :) )

 

Marcus

 

 

Takke Marcus, my brain hasn't even started growing yet :P really, the reason I am 'checking' is because I know how easy it is to be caught up in the flow of stuff - I spent YEARS trying to find happiness in Christianity and then found... Nothing, no belief or anything so by checking I do believe in it, can justify my belief adequately when under fire, means there's a chance of happiness, if this makes sense at all? It's a loooong quest

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You sound like somebody taking their first steps as a heathen to be honest. There's plenty there which I disagree with - and it's likely you will in time. That's okay - none of us is the finished article and everything should be considered the "best working hypothesis at the time". Heck at your age, you're probably not even the person you will end up being (your brain hasn't even finished fully growing yet :) )

 

Marcus

 

 

Takke Marcus, my brain hasn't even started growing yet :P really, the reason I am 'checking' is because I know how easy it is to be caught up in the flow of stuff - I spent YEARS trying to find happiness in Christianity and then found... Nothing, no belief or anything so by checking I do believe in it, can justify my belief adequately when under fire, means there's a chance of happiness, if this makes sense at all? It's a loooong quest

 

 

You stirred a memory, which I had forgotten, when you said "you tried to find happiness in Christianity and then found... Nothing". It's the Nothing part which prompted my memory. Many many years back, while still living with my Mum & Dad, I would retreat to my bedroom doing Pathworkings, meditations, astral travelling etc. One night I somehow projected myself outside my body, so I was out there & not in here so to speak. I looked for the Biblical God & I found a feeling of a void & desolation. I came back to Earth with such a bump before anything else happened. I reasoned from this he only existed within the mind & was a man made creation.

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I will challenge one of your beleifs - the medical usefulness of herbs (yes, yes, boo hiss, quiet you lot). Herbs can be used to aid healing - of course they can. BUT. And here is the "but" - if they were that good, why did our ancestors have a life expectancy between 45 and 17 depending where and when they lived and what class they were in? We can now, depending where we live and what class we live in, expect to live beyond our 70s. That is because modern medicine - despite it's faults, and there are many - is actually better. Herbs cannot target specific things; they have general effects that might hit what you're looking at. They sometimes have unpredictable side effects because they aren't medically studied sufficiently. Taking them can mess with other medication (ask any woman who had a st john's wart baby), sometimes in unpleasant and unpredictable ways. They aren't SAFE. Natural isn't SAFE. Not for you, not for the environment, once you start buying remedies. There is no reason to take them in preference to a modern medicine except when they're cheaper and easier to get hold of (ginger tea for nausea, for example), or when the medicine is unsuitable for you (when a herb is defiantly confirmed to be safe in pregnancy - not all of them are, by a long shot - and your medicine is not,for example). Get something that was made for the job, not something that *may* help with the problem.

Edited by Erynn
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why did our ancestors have a life expectancy between 45 and 17

 

Lack of nutritious food, poor hygiene, dangerous working conditions, exhaustion from child bearing, exhaustion from over working, drunkeness and drug abuse etc, etc., Social reform was what improved people's health not just medicine. And let's not forget that most modern medicines are derived from herbs and plants, the difference is that nowadays they have been clinically proved to be effecive. nurse-196.gif

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Yes; there are many factors. And do you know what? Nutrition AND hygiene both come under the heading "Modern medicine". So no points there.

Many things are derived from many other things. That does NOT make them the same thing or give them the same function. Gunpowder is derived from horse shit and piss; but horse shit and piss are not gunpowder.

The clinical effectiveness of medicines much outstrips that of pretty much any herb you would like to name. Herbs primary advantage over modern medicines is the ability to grow them in your own garden.

Also, Dod asked for people to challenge his beliefs; not other people to stick up for them. They're his beliefs, and he wanted them challenged. We can argue this over in another thread, if you would like to create one.

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I will challenge one of your beleifs - the medical usefulness of herbs (yes, yes, boo hiss, quiet you lot). Herbs can be used to aid healing - of course they can. BUT. And here is the "but" - if they were that good, why did our ancestors have a life expectancy between 45 and 17 depending where and when they lived and what class they were in? We can now, depending where we live and what class we live in, expect to live beyond our 70s. That is because modern medicine - despite it's faults, and there are many - is actually better. Herbs cannot target specific things; they have general effects that might hit what you're looking at. They sometimes have unpredictable side effects because they aren't medically studied sufficiently. Taking them can mess with other medication (ask any woman who had a st john's wart baby), sometimes in unpleasant and unpredictable ways. They aren't SAFE. Natural isn't SAFE. Not for you, not for the environment, once you start buying remedies. There is no reason to take them in preference to a modern medicine except when they're cheaper and easier to get hold of (ginger tea for nausea, for example), or when the medicine is unsuitable for you (when a herb is defiantly confirmed to be safe in pregnancy - not all of them are, by a long shot - and your medicine is not,for example). Get something that was made for the job, not something that *may* help with the problem.

 

 

Me did mention:

 

I did, however, stumble across a few little things that were right for me, things I could put my beliefs in. Herbs, for example were used for thousands of years and I see no reason why they won't work just as well now as they did then, if I can take herbs over pills (I tend to gag when swallowing pills) and my life is not threatened by my condition (if it is, I won't 'mess around' trying to find the right things and so on) then I don't see why I shouldn't.

in my main article :P as I said, so long as I can use them over pills and my life is NOT threatened by the condition... then again, if it is, it could be kinda amusing to say "Nah, I trust wholeheartedly in the healing power of JESUS!" and die 30 seconds later... :lol: that's just me.

 

As it is, I don't have faith in any of the meds I am on, I found self-harm more effective than anti-depressants and anti-anxiety (I've given up years ago with S/I btw and would not advocate it to anyone) medications I've been on... I go to the gym now. More effective for sure. Also I've found that the medications I'm on for other things don't work so well either.

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One size does not fit all for any treatment; further, no medicine on earth can fix a problem in your soul. so to speak. They treat symptoms, with limited success, and when the problem is emotional or in your past, there's very little any pill or potion can do to help you - herbs or modern medicine. Keep in mind psychiatrists, psychotherapists and Councillors are also practitioners of modern medicine. Even if your life isn't threatened, certain medications can be more effective than herbs (such as ibeprophen, depending on the person).

On a side note, Valium saved my dad's life in a metaphorical way. Very bad panic attacks. No herbal remedy on earth worked like Valium.

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Alcohol cures that effectively... and water cures hangovers. Problem solved? :lol:

 

Besides, if there isn't a natural cure for it, it's not a natural problem and it means I have angered the Gods and stuff.... so it means more raiding, raping* and pillaging to appease them... and also community service to make up for it....

 

*that was removed in the "Updated Humanitarian Viking Fieldbook, 2011 Edition"

 

But seriously, if I have a headache and a herb can't help it, water won't, etc. I'll just go lie down... and if my family IS the headache, I'll sell them to slavers. Problem solved.

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I hope you never have a 48 hour migraine ;) They're a bitch.

My challenge was made, accepted, and words were had... I think I'm done here :P

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Yeh! GET YE FROM MA THREAD, BANISHED ONE! :unsure:

 

A little support, guys? :P

 

Kidding, you're welcome here anytime Mor :)

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I am surprised that no one else has commented yet, as such - the medicinal discussion in itself interesting but tangent to nearly everything you have said - I am BRAND NEW here, and your post must be the 6th or 7th I have come across (in a forum i already feel comfortable with after years of searching!) - so my first point I feel is to say thank you - for being frank and candid about your views - your beliefs and (slightly concerning) your woes - I already feel compassion to a fellow human in pain - wish i could help in some magnanimous - altruistic way (how the hell do you spell those words!) - but know that I can not - suffice to say, Nic, I will re-read and re-read you words again as i know there are points in there that make ME think let. alone - trying to make YOu think! I like the position of your "question".. no doubt soon i will be posting my own questions - meanwhile my friend - hang on in there and the light will come.

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Hi Nik, :o_wave: First of all, I think you are incredibly brave for posting your beliefs and asking people to challenge them - I am sure that in a place where there are so many diverse pagans, and knowing that pagan is an umbrella term for people with lots of different beliefs, you are likely to get them challenged! lol! Although having said that, I think it's also a really good idea, and I envy how clear you are about your beliefs. And your what, 19??? I certainly didn't have a clue about what I believed at 19!

 

Ok, let me challenge away... :o_user:

 

I believe in the Runes, as they are earned for us by Divine sacrifice (Guder that sounds so up-myself) to use as we will. They are a gift from Oðinn and as such, they require certain specific traits or blessings (if you like) to handle and use correctly. I also believe that they can be a tool to find out about your past, present or future if there is need of it, as well as an alphabet system and symbols for the imbue-ing? Imbuement? Of magical qualities in an item or a person.

 

Tarot - You believe in divining with Runes yet you have a problem with Tarot? I personally have never used Runes, not because I don't believe in them, I've just never taken the time to get a set and learn the different symbols on them. They seem alien to me. But Tarot I have got, and I do like reading them. I would think Runes and Tarot work the same way? Some people say your Spirit Guides guide you when dealing the cards and choosing the right ones to read. I personally don't know what infuences it, but when I calm my mind and focus, relax with my breathing, concentrate on my question, then deal the cards, I always get a relevant answer. Whether it is for myself or for someone else. Although I don't know all the meanings off by heart (I have to refer to the book), I like the illustrations as they give you a headstart to seeing what they mean. Tarot, IMHO, is like helping to give you advice and see you through your life. The cards cover all the major events in your life, they are very relevant, and I like working with them. Why are runes any different? (Like I said, I've never worked with runes, so I'm assuming you divine with them in a similar way?). A similar tool to do the same thing. That's my thoughts!

 

Oh, and I personally love this, and completely agree:

 

Most importantly, though? I believe in the sanctity of all things. All paths, all religions (yes, even Christians, as much as I hate to say it!) are as valid as the other and can all lead to peace and the eventual finding of 'Truth'

 

Different religions are different peoples way of finding the divine in their own life, their own personal way is completely their own choice!

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Hi Nik, :o_wave: First of all, I think you are incredibly brave for posting your beliefs and asking people to challenge them - I am sure that in a place where there are so many diverse pagans, and knowing that pagan is an umbrella term for people with lots of different beliefs, you are likely to get them challenged! lol! Although having said that, I think it's also a really good idea, and I envy how clear you are about your beliefs. And your what, 19??? I certainly didn't have a clue about what I believed at 19!

 

Ok, let me challenge away... :o_user:

 

I believe in the Runes, as they are earned for us by Divine sacrifice (Guder that sounds so up-myself) to use as we will. They are a gift from Oðinn and as such, they require certain specific traits or blessings (if you like) to handle and use correctly. I also believe that they can be a tool to find out about your past, present or future if there is need of it, as well as an alphabet system and symbols for the imbue-ing? Imbuement? Of magical qualities in an item or a person.

 

Tarot - You believe in divining with Runes yet you have a problem with Tarot? I personally have never used Runes, not because I don't believe in them, I've just never taken the time to get a set and learn the different symbols on them. They seem alien to me. But Tarot I have got, and I do like reading them. I would think Runes and Tarot work the same way? Some people say your Spirit Guides guide you when dealing the cards and choosing the right ones to read. I personally don't know what infuences it, but when I calm my mind and focus, relax with my breathing, concentrate on my question, then deal the cards, I always get a relevant answer. Whether it is for myself or for someone else. Although I don't know all the meanings off by heart (I have to refer to the book), I like the illustrations as they give you a headstart to seeing what they mean. Tarot, IMHO, is like helping to give you advice and see you through your life. The cards cover all the major events in your life, they are very relevant, and I like working with them. Why are runes any different? (Like I said, I've never worked with runes, so I'm assuming you divine with them in a similar way?). A similar tool to do the same thing. That's my thoughts!

 

Oh, and I personally love this, and completely agree:

 

Most importantly, though? I believe in the sanctity of all things. All paths, all religions (yes, even Christians, as much as I hate to say it!) are as valid as the other and can all lead to peace and the eventual finding of 'Truth'

 

Different religions are different peoples way of finding the divine in their own life, their own personal way is completely their own choice!

 

Ooo, a reply! Cool. Thanks snowy! :D

 

Eeeeeeehr, Tarot I tend to avoid predominantly because the only times I was exposed to it was through my ex and her predictions were hard to believe at best and all were proven wrong. The Runes, however, have yet to let me down. As a general rule of thumb I like things that have been proven and, whilst I was very open to manipulation from my girlfriend's use of wyrd-reading, for it to be twisted to suit her ends (don't get me wrong, I adore her as a friend still) and as such I am very wary of someone else reading it for me - I also noticed how vague it is when attempting to consult it for myself whereas my Runes are a very reliable thing, perhaps because I DO like them and feel close with them. They seem tried and tested and have, as I said, yet to let me down.

 

Thanks :) Nik

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Ooo, a reply! Cool. Thanks snowy! :D

 

Eeeeeeehr, Tarot I tend to avoid predominantly because the only times I was exposed to it was through my ex and her predictions were hard to believe at best and all were proven wrong. The Runes, however, have yet to let me down. As a general rule of thumb I like things that have been proven and, whilst I was very open to manipulation from my girlfriend's use of wyrd-reading, for it to be twisted to suit her ends (don't get me wrong, I adore her as a friend still) and as such I am very wary of someone else reading it for me - I also noticed how vague it is when attempting to consult it for myself whereas my Runes are a very reliable thing, perhaps because I DO like them and feel close with them. They seem tried and tested and have, as I said, yet to let me down.

 

Thanks :) Nik

 

LOL, You're welcome! :D

 

Hmm, I think it might have been better if you had first discovered Tarot yourself, and tried to read them yourself. I still haven't learnt all the cards by heart so I always refer to a book to see the meaning of each card, I find The Tarot Directory by Annie Lionnet to be the best for me, but I think Tarot is up for interpretation, as you have to try and make sense of it and apply it to your own life. Sometimes difficult when reading for yourself as you can be too close to a situation! I've never read Runes so I've never seen them work (never seen them not work either!) so maybe I should try them out? My advice would be don't let one bad situation put you off Tarot, but pretty much use what you like and you're happy with!

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You know Nik, you can divine with an assortment of buttons if you want to. Your feeling that the tarot could be twisted possibly grew out of how they were being read to you. Any form of divination can be twisted....... or seem false if the reader is inexperienced and relies too much on set definitions rather than instinct. I prefer the runes, but I am sure tarot is just as good...... or ordinary playing cards, I ching rushes, staring at smoke, looking at birds etc etc. Its all about the reader not the methods they use. I'm sure some would disagree, but that is my feeling.

 

Mike

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Side topic: Very few people have an affinity for both runes and Tarot. Most I've known can only read one or t'other, not both, to the degree that I doubt people who say that can do both. I know it happens, but it's been proven so rarely that I do harbor doubts. As such, he's probably better off with his Runes.Snowy will probably find if she does attempt to learn the runes that interpretation is far less natural and more difficult than tarot. I don't know why this is, but I do have the theory that the two use completely different methods and have completely different affiliations.

Edited by Erynn
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You know Nik, you can divine with an assortment of buttons if you want to. Your feeling that the tarot could be twisted possibly grew out of how they were being read to you. Any form of divination can be twisted....... or seem false if the reader is inexperienced and relies too much on set definitions rather than instinct. I prefer the runes, but I am sure tarot is just as good...... or ordinary playing cards, I ching rushes, staring at smoke, looking at birds etc etc. Its all about the reader not the methods they use. I'm sure some would disagree, but that is my feeling.

 

Mike

 

Absolutely agree Mike,

In my experience the fall of the cards or the runes is completely random. What is specific is the way the readers mind reacts to the images that turn up.

Or

The way the reader reacts to the person for whom they are reading.

 

Birds, Clouds, Open a random page of a book - if you are allowing yourself to listen honestly to your reaction to words or images then you could be telling yourself something that your conscious mind would not otherwise say.

 

The value and in my view limitation of a good Tarot pack is the wide range of images and symbols that appear on each card and to which the reader can react.

The limitation and in my view the value of using Runes is the lack of images to which the readers mind can react thereby accessing the imagination/unconscious to a greater degree.

 

Well that's what I think :)

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Side topic: Very few people have an affinity for both runes and Tarot. Most I've known can only read one or t'other, not both, to the degree that I doubt people who say that can do both. I know it happens, but it's been proven so rarely that I do harbor doubts. As such, he's probably better off with his Runes.Snowy will probably find if she does attempt to learn the runes that interpretation is far less natural and more difficult than tarot. I don't know why this is, but I do have the theory that the two use completely different methods and have completely different affiliations.

 

So we might actually be better inclined to one method of divination than another? I am an artist, so perhaps I work better with pictures, hence the Tarot? I never thought of that before, thanks Erynn! :)

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In my experience the fall of the cards or the runes is completely random.

 

I have known this to both be and NOT be the case, with runes. I have seen the same question only ever turn up the same rune before.

 

Also, no problem snowy. I hope what I said and what I intended to say were one and the same :P

Edited by Erynn
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Side topic: Very few people have an affinity for both runes and Tarot. Most I've known can only read one or t'other, not both, to the degree that I doubt people who say that can do both. I know it happens, but it's been proven so rarely that I do harbor doubts. As such, he's probably better off with his Runes.Snowy will probably find if she does attempt to learn the runes that interpretation is far less natural and more difficult than tarot. I don't know why this is, but I do have the theory that the two use completely different methods and have completely different affiliations.

 

So we might actually be better inclined to one method of divination than another? I am an artist, so perhaps I work better with pictures, hence the Tarot? I never thought of that before, thanks Erynn! :)

 

Even though I think Erynn and I are approaching divination from different directions I think she is totally right in thinking that different people work better with different methods. The thing is to use the method which best enables your mind to do what it needs to do. In my way of thinking the tarot are just rectangles of cards, the runes bits of wood...... birds are birds. These things don't speak and have no knowledge. What they do is spark your mind. They enable you to alter your mental state and see things differently, to spark your deep and hidden intuition and make connections you might not otherwise make. So I personally would use traditional meanings as a springboard for my minds work rather than taking the meanings as actual prophesies from the cards, runes or whatever.

 

For you as an artist, Snowygirl, Tarot might well be perfect. They are very visual, and there are a lot more of them than there are runes. I like runes as I use the vague meanings of them to spark my mind. Sometimes I use nothing at all........ just sit very still and quiet and use my own mind pictures.

 

Mike

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Also, no problem snowy. I hope what I said and what I intended to say were one and the same :P

 

LOL, it made sense to me, so I think you said what you meant to say! lol!

 

For you as an artist, Snowygirl, Tarot might well be perfect. They are very visual, and there are a lot more of them than there are runes. I like runes as I use the vague meanings of them to spark my mind. Sometimes I use nothing at all........ just sit very still and quiet and use my own mind pictures.

 

There are many different forms of Tarot, I feel inspired by the different images, and would love to collect lots. I have only one set at the moment, a traditional set, but I think it could prove rather expensive to collect lots, but I am tempted! ;)

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So I personally would use traditional meanings as a springboard for my minds work rather than taking the meanings as actual prophesies from the cards, runes or whatever.

 

Funnily enough, there isn't any other CHOICE with runes. The existing historical information on what they mean is very clearly (to my mind) a set of single word or simple phrase metaphors for what they mean; ways for them to be explained to the Nordic mind. Part of readint them at first is knowing what those symbols meant to the Norse, and then advancing your own understanding of what it means. The runes don't have literally translatable meanings - they have approximations to make understanding easier to begin with.

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Nik, I thought of something else to challenge your beliefs with!

 

  • The Gods and Goddesses of the Norse Pantheon and their individual abilities and powers over things. I believe they are too busy to meddle directly with the lives of everyone who is involved in the world, but some truly exceptional individuals may catch their attention, have their blessing or be their chosen to act in certain ways. I believe them holding up the Universe is a pretty decent thing to do, so I believe it is right to regard them, thank them and respect them.

 

Why should a God or Goddess be too busy to meddle directly with the lives of everyone? If their energy or divinity is in every living thing, then they are already a part of us and already connected to us. Why shouldn't they take notice of us? Does that mean we are insignificant and unimportant? Why do we have to be truly exceptional to catch their attention? Are we not all special? I think we are. If we honour and respect nature, believe everything created by our Gods/Goddesses is special (which includes us), then we must be sacred and special also, shouldn't we?

 

I do agree if we regard them highly, thank them and respect them, then in a sense it is a polite way to acknowledge them, and they may well notice us more then than if we did not. But I do not think us entirely insignificant and unimportant. Everyone has value and is important! (In my humble opinion!) ;)

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Why should a God or Goddess be too busy to meddle directly with the lives of everyone?

 

Why should they? In fact - why do you even assume they are universal? The one thing I've noticed is that my Gods seem extremely local.

I don't know whether they translate to other cultures, but it doesn't look like they do.

 

If their energy or divinity is in every living thing, then they are already a part of us and already connected to us.

 

Why do you think their "energy" is in every living thing? That's your belief - it's not mine.

 

Why shouldn't they take notice of us? Does that mean we are insignificant and unimportant? Why do we have to be truly exceptional to catch their attention? Are we not all special? I think we are. If we honour and respect nature, believe everything created by our Gods/Goddesses is special (which includes us), then we must be sacred and special also, shouldn't we?

 

Personally - I don't think everybody is special to me. Sure, everybody probably has somebody who loves them but if I'm honest, there's plenty of people in the world I don't have any feelings for whatsoever. Worse there's a few I genuinely can't stand to be in the same place as. A tiny few I actively hate.

 

Marcus

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Nik, I thought of something else to challenge your beliefs with!

 

  • The Gods and Goddesses of the Norse Pantheon and their individual abilities and powers over things. I believe they are too busy to meddle directly with the lives of everyone who is involved in the world, but some truly exceptional individuals may catch their attention, have their blessing or be their chosen to act in certain ways. I believe them holding up the Universe is a pretty decent thing to do, so I believe it is right to regard them, thank them and respect them.

 

Why should a God or Goddess be too busy to meddle directly with the lives of everyone? If their energy or divinity is in every living thing, then they are already a part of us and already connected to us. Why shouldn't they take notice of us? Does that mean we are insignificant and unimportant? Why do we have to be truly exceptional to catch their attention? Are we not all special? I think we are. If we honour and respect nature, believe everything created by our Gods/Goddesses is special (which includes us), then we must be sacred and special also, shouldn't we?

 

I do agree if we regard them highly, thank them and respect them, then in a sense it is a polite way to acknowledge them, and they may well notice us more then than if we did not. But I do not think us entirely insignificant and unimportant. Everyone has value and is important! (In my humble opinion!) ;)

 

 

Think of the Gods as your employers and you work in a massive multi-national corporation. Whilst every single employee gives something to the company, the managerial staff cannot know each and every person who works for and with the company. At the same time, they may see someone truly exceptional in their field and hire them to do specific tasks as direct representatives within the corporation. Of course everyone is important, but not everyone is so noticeable. Not to mention ensuring that the heavens and earth are all working correctly, all in sync... And the wild parties, etc.

 

That's what the ancestors are for, and land spirits.

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Think of the Gods as your employers and you work in a massive multi-national corporation. Whilst every single employee gives something to the company, the managerial staff cannot know each and every person who works for and with the company. At the same time, they may see someone truly exceptional in their field and hire them to do specific tasks as direct representatives within the corporation. Of course everyone is important, but not everyone is so noticeable. Not to mention ensuring that the heavens and earth are all working correctly, all in sync... And the wild parties, etc.

 

That's what the ancestors are for, and land spirits.

 

This is similar to my own beliefs.

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Why should a God or Goddess be too busy to meddle directly with the lives of everyone?

 

Why should they? In fact - why do you even assume they are universal? The one thing I've noticed is that my Gods seem extremely local.

I don't know whether they translate to other cultures, but it doesn't look like they do.

 

Personally I feel the God and Goddess are within us all, a bit like yin and yang. They are within every living thing on the planet, so in a way we are all connected, and to me it seems logical that they would have an awareness of us. Although when I've been reading about old Celtic traditions, it seems they honoured local Gods and deities, so maybe some are more specific to certain areas and lands. Maybe I'm wrong?

 

If their energy or divinity is in every living thing, then they are already a part of us and already connected to us.

 

Why do you think their "energy" is in every living thing? That's your belief - it's not mine.

 

Because I have felt it, I believe it is there.

 

Why shouldn't they take notice of us? Does that mean we are insignificant and unimportant? Why do we have to be truly exceptional to catch their attention? Are we not all special? I think we are. If we honour and respect nature, believe everything created by our Gods/Goddesses is special (which includes us), then we must be sacred and special also, shouldn't we?

 

Personally - I don't think everybody is special to me. Sure, everybody probably has somebody who loves them but if I'm honest, there's plenty of people in the world I don't have any feelings for whatsoever. Worse there's a few I genuinely can't stand to be in the same place as. A tiny few I actively hate.

 

I agree it is difficult to think of everyone is special. A lot of people irritate me, and I would be glad to never have to see them or deal with them. But I do not look at animals in quite the same way. And humans are animals too. I mean we are all special in the sense that we have a divine energy in us all, and we are part of all the wonderful living creatures on this planet. So we are all special and we are all alive. So I feel they should be special, but it is difficult to relate to them, but I feel a God or Goddess, if being honoured, respected and/or acknowledged by a human, then they should at least take notice of them. And I think that they would.

 

These are just my beliefs, and I know they are not everyone's. I am only challenging Nik's beliefs as he asks us to, and I think it's interesting to see and compare different beliefs. We learn new beliefs we might like and want to adopt, and we also learn new beliefs we think no way would I ever want to believe that! But if we all thought, behaved and acted the same, it would be a very boring place! :)

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Think of the Gods as your employers and you work in a massive multi-national corporation. Whilst every single employee gives something to the company, the managerial staff cannot know each and every person who works for and with the company. At the same time, they may see someone truly exceptional in their field and hire them to do specific tasks as direct representatives within the corporation. Of course everyone is important, but not everyone is so noticeable. Not to mention ensuring that the heavens and earth are all working correctly, all in sync... And the wild parties, etc.

 

That's what the ancestors are for, and land spirits.

 

Well, when you put it like that, maybe it is difficult to acknowledge each person who tries to connect with you, and perhaps as Marcus suggests, if the Gods are very local, then they would have a smaller amount of people to deal with and easily get to know you. Much like an employer in a small company!

 

I haven't worked with ancestors or land spirits, so don't know a lot about them - think I need to research! But of course, as far as I know, land spirits are very local, to a specific area or natural object, so they would be better for much closer contact!

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