Jump to content

Welcome Guest!

Welcome to UK Pagan; The Valley

Like most online communities we require you to register for an account before we give you access to read and post.

Only a small number of our forum areas can be read without registering for an account.

The Magick Shop
Please consider visiting our kind sponsor: The Magick Shop
Sign in to follow this  
Moonsmith

A Need To Join.

Recommended Posts

Moonsmith

I have been looking back at quite a few enquiries centred around the question "What is my path?"

 

Our reply is almost a drumbeat. Moonhunter could almost set up an algorithm that answered automatically " YOU'RE ALREADY ON IT." "WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS WHAT YOU DO!"

 

Then I looked at those of us who are saying these things. Most of us have been members of some sort of religion or belief group.

 

[it may well have been Christianity - a great training ground for Pagans!]

 

We have come out the other side knowing that our own thoughts are every bit as valid as those of the Pope, Chief Rabbi, Grand Imam or the Dali Lama let alone Pagan and protoPagan thinkers from across the last century. Do some others need to pass through the slough of "joining" in order to leave the crap in there and to come out thinking clean.

 

A number of us have said here that we are doing things our own way but often we are working within frameworks that we have previously experienced. Those frameworks may be very stretched and certainly in my own case may not even be recognisable to the originals. Doing this takes a certain amount of self confidence and self belief.

It may seem very daunting to a newcomer to Paganism or to someone who has followed a belief and is hurt or confused having found it to be inadequate.

 

I am uncertain how to progress this thought.

 

I am reluctant even to suggest that someone join a group but much of that reluctance is because I've seen so much ego and bullshit. On the other hand I survived it but with what Freydis calls my "Bullshitmeter" running on supercharge. There are some very persuasive Bulls Arses ready to crap on the unwary or unknowing.

 

I'd love the thought that the Valley can be useful to these enquirers but - well they don't seem to stay very long. Perhaps that one thread of "permission" to go one's own way is enough.

 

I dunno.

 

It this worth thinking about or is it just a three coffee brainfart?

Edited by Moonsmith

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ad from Google

Maeve

There is so much stuff on the internet - much is just plain rubbish and even more is Moonsmith's bullshit ... it is hard to know what to bother with ... what to think upon ... Here in The Valley, whilst we do have fun, it is also a place for quite serious discussion and contributors trust their readers and air their views accordingly with only the very occasional spat :) That is not what happens on most pagan sites! It may well be that newcomers, with little or no knowledge, find the lighter stuff on the internet in general, more enticing than serious discussion - that is getting a bit near to a sweeping generalisation which I abhor but ... those that stay and join in the discussions, are the core of The Valley membership and I for one, value each one greatly!

 

Maybe we all have to start with the lightweight stuff - or come from some other religious background with which we are disenchanted - in order to start to chime with pagan ideas and beliefs. When I first discovered a sort of label for things that had lurked in my mind and thinking since I was a child, I was astounded - and so many newcomers here say similar things! If The Valley and those of us in it, provide even just a starting place for folk seeking paganism to bring to their life's journey (path), then that is good enough. If those fold stay a while and contribute as they learn ... all the better!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fortuna

It may well be a coffee brainfart, but it is a subject worth pursuing. I'm sometimes surprised when people arrive in the Valley, seem to get so much out of it in terms of feeling okay with abandoning old structures or becoming comfortable with uncertainty.......... then they bugger off!! :) I'm really not sure if that is a good thing or not. Perhaps the shallower and more transient nature of some groups such as Facebook is what most folks feel comfortable with, but they want to gain reassurance from a place which feels a little deeper (for want of a better word). Maybe that is okay.

 

Oh Moonsmith, now my brain is starting to fart...... I blame you. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moonsmith

There is so much stuff on the internet - much is just plain rubbish and even more is Moonsmith's bullshit

 

It's not ALL mine!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ellinas

There is so much stuff on the internet - much is just plain rubbish and even more is Moonsmith's bullshit

 

It's not ALL mine!

 

You beat me to that one. I was going to ask just how many branflakes you'd been eating...

 

If we give the passers-through the confidence to go their own way rejoicing, all to the good. Have we not then fulfilled a rather important purpose? If they find the need or maturity to return in due course, good. But they owe us nothing, so if they do not, what's the problem?

 

I do think we should be a little careful about how we talk about shallowness elsewhere, however. Yes, it exists, and bullshit should be called out where it is advanced. But there are other sites that do manage - or, at least, have in the past - managed to integrate madcap humour with sensible discussion. The Valley does not have the monopoly, just its' own style. And, in the end, we are all in the process of growing - perhaps, even, of growing up. We, each of us, need to be careful not to belittle those who are "behind" us, so to speak - just as we need to realize we are likely to meet, at some point, someone who is "ahead" of us. Encouragement where it is appropriate - confrontation where it is necessary, I suppose.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geoffp

Is it possible that quite a few new comers join with an expectation of being taught how to be Pagan, or expect a definitive answer to their question "what kind of pagan am I"

 

I came here with an idea of what and where I was but with absolutly no idea of paganism except for what Christianity taught me.

 

From Birth I was brought up in the Salvation Army. The doctrine was ingrained in me right through from Sunday School to standing on street corners on a sunday morning taking part in an 'open air' meeting preaching the 'good news'

There was never any problem with guidence, this is what the bible says about this or this is what the bible says about that.

 

Guidence in Paganism? Myths and Legends. Then you come across a site like UK Pagan and reading others experiences and gleaning hints of reading material is just fantastic. The downside is, just when you think you are starting to get a grip on the subject, someone comes along and makes your reading list even longer :D

 

As a side line, one thing that amuses me is the way every one always talks of things like Norse Mythology yet no one talks of Christian Mythology...apparently it must be fact.

 

I seem to have lost my track a bit, but what I mean to say is, Not all of us have a great deal to say on matters probably because of a lack of knowledge or understanding, so we remain as lurkers, taking in threads and learning from what we read while trying all the time to re-write all that has been fed into our minds over the years by Christianity.

 

My thanks to all the regulars here.....I think you have the balance just right

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moonsmith

 

---- - just as we need to realize we are likely to meet, at some point, someone who is "ahead" of us. Encouragement where it is appropriate - confrontation where it is necessary, I suppose.

 

Exactly!

While I do not mind being advisor/guide/shoulder/obscure/ irrelevant and even sometime clown and Bull's Arse; a prime purpose in being here is the hope that I shall do exactly that. On other philosophical [rather than spiritual] and scientific websites I am privileged to meet such and have been slammed as well as encouraged to think or look wider/ deeper/ differently / more specifically / accurately and have much appreciated it.

 

However my spiritual confidence [not certainty - I can learn almost weekly!] comes in part from an in depth knowledge and understanding of a religious framework that I have left behind. In fact I have left behind two of them. I was an Anglican Christian for decades and have also had eight years of being close to adapted [bastardised?] Gardnerianism and this too I have left behind. Oh I do take part in public and other Gardner based rituals but they are not my practice.

 

Please note that I am not referring to Wicca in any way or form. If you have not taken part in ritual then you may not know that it is common to find all sorts of Pagans using some form of a Gardnerian sequence for opening and closing their rites. Even though I am not Wiccan I deeply regret attending one general open ritual at which oathbound Wiccan material was totally misused.

 

Experience of both frameworks has contributed enormously to the consolidation of my own unique beliefs.

 

Hence my question. Should we whose belief has been forged in delusion, ego and bullshit as well as sincerity and disciplined practice and who have survived it, be telling newcomers to do as we do without that experience.

 

"Looking for your first car? Don't trust the bullshit Ford salesman. You just need to build your own Ferrari [or in my case Cat D9]"

 

[Don't worry Maeve I am sufficiently confident in you and myself to have blinked at your post but nothing more before I laughed!]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ellinas

Isn't everyone's belief forged in delusion, ego and bullshit (henceforth "DEB") albeit to varying proportions? The issue is rather that of going through a process akin to refining metal - i.e. trying to burn of the DEB.

 

What you mean, I suspect (though correct me if I am wrong as I don't pretend to be psychic; psycho, maybe, but not psychic) is:

"Should we whose belief has been forged in other people's enforcement of their own delusions, ego and bullshit, as well as in sincere personal enquiry and discipline, and who have survived the enforced religious dogma, be telling newcomers to do as we do without that experience?"

 

The answer is on a number of levels:

  1. At one level, it may be said that there is no difference and hence nothing to worry about. DEB are pretty universal; just because someone does not have a background in an organized religion does not mean these are not present. Indeed, self delusion, personal ego and self justificatory bullshit are, at least, just as dangerous;
  2. At another level, the question is whether there is another choice. What can we tell them that is not guidance from one's own experience? Or do you suggest we refuse guidance on the basis that the newcomer has not suffered enough? Personally, I would not advise anyone to become a Christian(or anything else) just to realize how hypocritical and controlling it can be;
  3. At the third level, however, what you ask should be answered with a resounding "No". We should not be telling anyone what to do. That is the point of saying "go your own way, make up your own mind, do your own research and have the courage of your own convictions".

I don't think these are as contradictory as might appear at first blush. If we adhere to the practice of 3, ante, then any advice given is likely to be in terms of questioning the basis of what is asserted by the newcomer, hopefully getting him or her to see past any "DEB". Guidance won't be "do as I do" but rather "think about whether what you are doing makes sense to you". Pointing out pitfalls is a perfectly valid part of that exercise. If that is how we operate, then I think we are acknowledging the universal issue of DEB (whatever its' source), acting responsibly in accordance with our own experience and yet not exercising undue influence.

 

What this really boils down to is trying to help without replacing whatever DEB is already present with some of our own.

Edited by Ellinas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maeve

 

 

[Don't worry Maeve I am sufficiently confident in you and myself to have blinked at your post but nothing more before I laughed!]

 

.... what I should have written, of course: is what Moonsmith calls bullshit .... apologies Moonsmith! My post came out all wrong :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ellinas

[Don't worry Maeve I am sufficiently confident in you and myself to have blinked at your post but nothing more before I laughed!]

 

.... what I should have written, of course: is what Moonsmith calls bullshit .... apologies Moonsmith! My post came out all wrong :)

 

But very funny.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NorseNephilim

I think that we do, perhaps, need to survive a group in order to transcend the group, if that is what is meant. But I am not sure if the group has to be specifically spiritual/religious.

 

I never really had any religious group that I belonged to before finding paganism. However, there have been many groups and subcultures that I have joined in the past. Usually with such groups, things went along swimmingly until I settled in. Then, after a while, the squabbles and petty politics caused me to realise that the elder members of those groups had no better idea of what was going on than I did. I think it is the learning from those experiences that I carried into my paganism.

 

So, while I would now most probably be referred to as a 'lapsed' goth/metalhead/roleplayer or whatever, I would still consider that, to some extent, I still am all those things. I'm just doing them my own way. Just as I do with my heathenry. Only with heathenry, I didn't feel the need to see it done wrong first - I'm doing it wrong all by myself! ;)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Earthdragon

I have been looking back at quite a few enquiries centred around the question "What is my path?"

 

Our reply is almost a drumbeat. Moonhunter could almost set up an algorithm that answered automatically " YOU'RE ALREADY ON IT." "WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS WHAT YOU DO!"

 

 

It may seem very daunting to a newcomer to Paganism.

 

I am reluctant even to suggest that someone join a group but much of that reluctance is because I've seen so much ego and bullshit.

 

I'd love the thought that the Valley can be useful to these enquirers but - well they don't seem to stay very long. Perhaps that one thread of "permission" to go one's own way is enough.

I see people asking "What is my path?" as a healthy way of addressing the need for self expression of their spiritual path. I think that to conceive of one's path and begin to express it is a crucial stage in the development of one's identity. To do so could well open up horizons which were previously unseen. After all a path has continuity and stretches into the future its not just where we have been and where we are now at...naming and expressing one's path enables more choice about its direction I'd say.

 

I agree it can be daunting. I see a crisis of identity a very likely thing to happen if and when one's path and all it may entail pushes against societal norms and past conditioning - they ways that we are taught what see and think by society family etc

 

Its natural to groups I think. We are communal creatures. Its atural also for some to go it alone. And we all have egos. Its the degree to which ego impinges on other that indicates what problems are there. A good group will help its members be empowered not impinged upon.

 

As regards people not sticking around in the Valley could the mods create a sort of simple anonymous feedback form?

 

In general people will stick around if they can get something out of it.

 

ED

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moonhunter

As regards people not sticking around in the Valley could the mods create a sort of simple anonymous feedback form?

 

/Off topic moment - IME most folks fall into three categories:

  1. complete a profile and intro of about three words, get asked to put more into it before being admitted to the site, and never bother
  2. complete an adequate profile and intro and get sent a "welcome to the Valley" message which they never read, as they never return
  3. complete an adequate profile and intro, read the welcome message, acknowledge the welcomes from all and sundry and never post anything else
  4. ditto ditto, but never really post much

It's easy to see - click here and look at post numbers.

 

/end off topic moment

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maeve

How can you name your path into the future, ED? Whilst I can project a little way into the future about what might occur, what I might do, what I would like to do or not do .... none of us can know what will happen with life's experiences and choices coming along to be decided upon .... in my personal view! That is why I will always say ... you are on your path from birth to death (and maybe beyond but who knows?) and the only certain thing is death ..... So, I cannot name my path ahead, only what it is now and what it has been ...

 

Just saying ;)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Earthdragon

Hi Maeve,

 

I can see what you mean. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of steering one's path by knowing what aspirations and intentions one is building up eg. Communing with deity or self knowledge or poetic expression. Yes I can see that there is uncertainty about anything predictive but seeing what direction one's path has more clearly might in general mean one can see where it will hopefully lead.

 

ED

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ellinas

The idea that finding a name for a path enables choice is uncertain, to my mind.

 

I suppose it depends.

 

Names can be restrictive, if they are taken to require an obedience to a certain doctrine or practice. The may, potentially, be helpful if their associations bring discipline.

 

Striking a balance is not necessarily easy.

 

And, of course, adopting a name is not the same as joining a group.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Freydis

Names can be useful in that they can help to provide pointers I guess. As in I'm interested in A, B and C, so maybe that makes me X. I suppose that for some they are limiting in that once some people find a name they shut down certain avenues perhaps. It's horses for courses, I think. Some people find names useful for various reasons, others don't and don't use them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Earthdragon

I think answering "What is my path" doesnt necessarily mean giving it a name or a label. I agree names can be limiting. I think expressing and describing one's path is healthy and due to the nature of things (things change) might be a useful thing to do periodically. As I mentioned it can involve looking at aspirations and insight into how and where they might be met (or not!)

 

Agreed expressing one's path isn't the same thing as joining a group but the same issues affect a group's functioning I think. Sharing common goals and aspirations and the means to achieve them etc.

 

The group that I am in encourages confidence in the expression of one's core faith or inner truth which is a personal thing. We have pantheists, polytheists, Buddhists and agnostics and atheists in our group. We have had monotheists too.

 

I am reminded of the thread a while back on orthodoxy and orthopraxy. What one does as being distinct from what one believes... which is a different view from the OP namely "What you believe did what you do"

 

ED

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Earthdragon

Last line of the last post should be of course

 

What one does as being distinct from what one believes... which is a different view from the OP namely "What you believe is what you do"

 

ED

Edited by Earthdragon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moonsmith

When I wrote "What you believe is what you do"; I meant it in the context of the advice that we tend to give here in the valley.

 

= If you are wondering what to do then do what you believe. Emphasis on YOU.

 

My experience of a single formal religion and of a narrow view of Paganism have taught me many useful things from which to construct my own practical Paganism.

[i say "narrow view" on the basis that Paganism is so idiosyncratic that a wide view in depth is probably impossible]

 

From religion I learned the power of blind faith, the function of space, sound, light, movement and regalia, the function of theatre and the necessity for a reasonable level of oration. I learned not to fear being highly visible as I functioned before large groups. I learned the power of ritual and the importance of doing it well. I also learned that apparently authoritative statements are backed by varying degrees of authority, knowledge or reference right down to nil even when delivered by high ranking, well paid and respected members of the clergy. My scientific learning taught me that sermons can be completely made up.

 

I lapsed.

 

I learned that my personal authority stands with that of any other text, tradition or person living, dead or returned from same.

 

I managed.

 

When I found Paganism I was sufficiently reluctant to join that I "tagged along" with the Earthworks tribe for three years before "joining".

 

I learned that Paganism had much to learn from the experience, psychology and professionalism of formal religion and that formal religion had much to learn about the psychology and individual & shared perception found in Paganism.[uPG and SPG].

 

I learned exactly the same lessons from both about sermons, talks, literature, stories, legends, sources and lack of them.

 

I learned that neither had it "right" as far as I was concerned. I learned that both are "right" for innumerable others.

 

From both I learned the power of my own thoughts. I chose my own way. I have literally become a heretic but could I have done so without both those experiences?

 

I very often wonder where I would be and what I might believe without those two experiences?

I often examine the validity of my belief against this history.

 

What would I be doing now if I had come to the valley and asked "What is my path?".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ellinas

The old "what if...".

 

To me, it's a meaningless question in the vast majority of instances.

 

In this context, we are - inevitably - each the product of his or her particular history. We each have our combination of experience, the scars and and the impressions, and these inform our current outlook - just as our current outlook and experience will inform what we will become. It's not quite a chain of experience, however. More a complex, patterned, interwoven rope. You cannot just speculate on an assumption of one change, as there is no way of knowing what knock on effects that would have on the chaotic pattern of all experiences contemporary and subsequent to it. What would you have been had you asked that question? Who knows. What matters is what you are now.

 

Of course, you might be hinting at what responsibility we bear for the effects of answering the question in the way we do. That responsibility, however, is easy enough to bear if we are satisfied that the answer is correct.

 

At present, I believe that it is. Therefore, I have no concerns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hopeful Seeker

As a relative newcomer to both Paganism and this community I think it is helpful to think about questions of identity and accessibility here. Many people will come to this site as a part of their spiritual journey (I am aware how contentious the word spiritual is but I think for many path seekers it is relevant). Newcomers are often looking for a name for their path that will help them make sense of it and also, possibly, feed into their sense of self and it is important, I think, to remember that this process of enculturation begins from a young age. Most of us are taught to perceive that a named path and a spiritual elder (Priest, Imam, and so on) are necessary for spiritual progression. In that sense, aren't many of the 'what is my path?' posts a kind of call for that Pagan spiritual guide or elder? It is perfectly fine to respond to that call with a push to self-direction and agency but that comes with a responsibility and a host of challenges that many seekers were simply not built or prepared for. I can't speak for others but I find the wonderfully nebulous diversity of Paganism both a gift and a challenge.

 

There is also a lot of information in The Valley to navigate and digest along with a discourse that, once again, many newcomers may not be used to, and thus struggle to access. Thus, folk don't post or lurk or leave.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ellinas

Some of that sounds relevant to the threads on being to academic and ideas to get people involved, both in the Axe Grinder's Workshop board. You may like to cast an eye over those.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moon_Child

I know this thread is a little old now, but it caught my eye as I was exploring as a newcomer - so it felt appropriate to reply.

I've always been anxious about finding my own way, so I've ignored my experiences and the tendrils of my beliefs until now. I'm now trying to reach out, to find the right paths on my journey, and talk to those who have been through it before. I have people in my life who are pagan, but for a variety of reasons they can't or won't help me. So I've turned to the internet to try and bypass the B.S. and get some ideas about where to go next...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mat

The internet isn't always the best place to start. Partially due to a large quantity of complete twaddle out there, but mainly because search engines answer the questions you ask of them. That's great if you know the question to begin with! I personally found two ways of approaching this: 

1. go to a decent bookstore or library, head towards the spiritual/religion section. First, scan the shelves idly and wait for a book to (metaphorically) jump out at you. If one draws your attention, buy it, read it. The other approach to try is to run your open hand close to the bookshelf and see if you get a pull or spike from one of the books (eg a tingle or warmth). if so, buy it and read it. If this works, do it a few times: don't worry about maintaining subject matter, you'd be surprised how varied the matter can lead to the same conclusions.

2. go link surfing on the internet. Pick a subject, find a decent website about it, then follow links from that website. After the 3rd or 4th link, hopefully you should be getting some good information. 

I'm hesitant to recommend any specifics or direction, as I'm all too aware that you need to receive information in the correct sequence: jump-step and it won't make sense.

hope this helps,

Mat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moonsmith

Trust yourself MC.

I am not at all sure that turning to the internrt will bypass the BS 🙂  Here in the Valley we are reasonably measured but we aren't "right".

The following is not a set of instructions, it is a description as to how I, a complete stranger to you, goes about it.

Don't work hard at it.  The most important thing is living: ordinary, mundane, routine living.  While you do that let your mind think.  Don't try and channel it, just think to yourself.  Think about what you really believe.  Don't argue with yourself, just let the thoughts flow through your mind as you peel spuds and vac the rug.  Play with ideas without commitment. Take time.

After a while you will come to understand what you really believe and what you want to do about it.  It may be very different from what your education told you.

No one else has ever been where you are going.   Their backgrounds, ways of thinking and potential are different from yours.  I would advise not to decide upon a label or join a group too soon.  We suspect that the majority of Pagans are solitary and without a specific label - they are simply what they are [but we can't know that].

Of course reading here in the Valley and elsewhere, listening to others, asking them questions can all go into the mincer of your thinking but I would suggest that you swallow nothing whole.  Some of the thoughts that you read might resonate, a hell of a lot will end up on the midden.

Once that is eventually settling in your mind THEN MAYBE it's time to see if others might be thinking as you do - It will never be the same but it might be sufficiently similar for you to enjoy and contribute to a group.  [I mean a specific group 🙂  Here in the valley you can think whatever you want - it is a great sounding board]

Or not.

I didn't for thirty years.

I originally wrote "once that is settled" but it probably never really will be completely settled.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Veggie dancer
15 hours ago, Moon_Child said:

I know this thread is a little old now, but it caught my eye as I was exploring as a newcomer - so it felt appropriate to reply.

I've always been anxious about finding my own way, so I've ignored my experiences and the tendrils of my beliefs until now. I'm now trying to reach out, to find the right paths on my journey, and talk to those who have been through it before. I have people in my life who are pagan, but for a variety of reasons they can't or won't help me. So I've turned to the internet to try and bypass the B.S. and get some ideas about where to go next...

Hi Moon child, don't worry about posting on an old thread its positively encouraged around here. :wink: I agree with quite a bit of what moonsmith says above. Trust your instincts, don't try too hard ( nothing gets in the way of finding your way more in my experience ) just be your natural self, explore, water those seeds of inspiration but don't drown them. It can be lonely but about the joining a group thing of course that could be ideal but then you don't want to get embroiled in the wrong group either. Hopefully if you put your self where you feel right, do what makes you happy you will be in the right place at the right time to meet people who share your interests be that online or in the real world..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ellinas

Basically, MS' approach mirrors my own - though I may be more inclined than he is to argue with myself.  But then, that is natural ground for a lawyer.

I would also caution, as Mat suggests, against taking too much notice of what is said on t'internet.  Equally, I would caution against taking too much notice of what is said in books.

I find a good approach is to treat all sources of information and ideas as just that: sources.  The ideas and info go into the grinder that is in my head to be bashed around, mixed in various recipes and baked (or, more often, half baked) into loaves of different levels of digestibility.  Some end up in the compost heap.  Some are chewed upon for the time being.  All are subject to being re-minced and re-(half)baked into yet further loaves of different consistencies.  Nothing is regarded as right, nothing is certain and everything is subject to change.

As regards the title to this thread - generally, I have a need not to join.  The Valley is OK because no-one can assume any authority (save insofar as a Mod can deal with such matters as an offensive character) and there is no officialdom as such.  In the end, we are just individuals half baking our own loaves on the flour of each other's ideas.

But, that is just my outlook...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moonsmith

That may be a current bun but tomorrow, who knows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ellinas

Usually I'm regarded as a bit of a fruit cake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×