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Moonsmith

The end or is it?

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Ellinas

The ambrosia will, indeed, be on you.  Our relative ages may require you to keep a spare seat at the bar for a while.  Just make sure the ambrosia is ouzo flavoured.

As regards the cat - which always had enough problems, in my view - if we assume that it also has its own perception, if not its own universe, was its state not both certain and uncertain even in the one box version?  Change the cat for another human, if it helps the thought process, but I think the result is the same. To permit a degree of pure, or, at least, consistent, uncertainty/certainty, don't we have to swap the cat for something inanimate - say a version of the experiment where there is a 50% chance of a lump of cheese being melted?

Even that requires us to assume that mind is not ubiquitous, and that cheese is not sentient.  Judging by the Stilton I ate a while back, that might be a big assumption.

I've not thought all this through properly, and it is possible I am undertaking an exercise to improve my fluency in talking bollox.  Either way, it all tends to confirm my usual position - that certainty is over-rated.

In my universe, who conceived of me?

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Moonsmith
5 hours ago, Ellinas said:

In my universe, who conceived of me?

You did!  That is what I was approaching in the OP!  If an individual awareness does not survive "death" then neither does the individual.

You are already chasing the three box problem which uses two entangled particles and two human beings in its  spheres of observation rather than a second cat [or Gorgonzola]. One of Einstein's own thought experiments used a theoretical element that emitted particles at a rate of one per hour.  The "had it or hadn't it" replaced the cat's sacrifice or survival 🙂

However when I'm dead will I care?  The pursuit of understanding is so integral with my "self" that were I not able to continue it, should it become irrelevant or unavailable then what I am would also cease to be.  I can't sing in the heavenly choir, I can't play a harp, Im not equipped with sufficient sternum nor chest muscles to fly.  I have no awareness nor understanding that did not come from this incarnation so what's the point of reincarnation if I have to effin' start again!

Edited by Moonsmith
so that I'm telling the truth [as far as I know it]

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Ellinas

I'm not sure that "what's the point" is a meaningful question.  As I seem to recall you (possibly) saying, whatever happens, happens.  That seems to me to mean that there does not have to be a "point".  I could equally ask, if I cease to exist, what's the point of my ever having lived?  The reality is that either we will continue or we will not - pointless or not as that may seem in either case.

I happen to assert the primacy of mind - whatever that might mean.  But even asserting that mind somehow precedes matter does not mean that mind "controls" our existence in any way that permits an identifiable "point" to who or what we are.

If we each conceived of ourselves within our own universes, we are self-existent.  I suppose that accords with your version of pantheism.  It may mean, also, that your universe did not exist until you were able to grasp it in some meaningful fashion.  Which may lead to the conclusion that, as a newborn, you did not exist.

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Moonsmith
10 minutes ago, Ellinas said:

Which may lead to the conclusion that, as a newborn, you did not exist.

....... which is exactly why I have used the term "awareness" throughout.

One of the joys of early parenthood is to watch a little being who is the  entirety of its awareness, slowly separate itself from "other than self".

The cry of a newborn is in my view a statement that the universe is out of whack, not [at first] a demand that some "other" puts it right.  Awareness of "other" soon sets up associations and a universe that had previously existed as adjectives [warm, replete etc.] begins to acquire nouns and then verbs as that universe [and self] is realised.  Prior to this the baby existed in my universe; I'm not certain about exactly when its own formed. Of COURSE this process begins in the womb, perhaps soon after the big bang [Sorry!  😞:o_bolt:]

  • Haha 1

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